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Oldleg

Help needed in identifying this bullet

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Oldleg

On a recent walk in the forest of Lyons, Normandy, France, I found this shell. Now I am not sure where it comes from or what period it is from, whether it is WWI or II. Can anyone identify it?  The measurements are in CMs.   

IMAG0484.jpg

IMAG0485.jpg

IMAG0486.jpg

IMAG0487.jpg

Edited by Oldleg
I had not entered the measurement unit.

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shippingsteel

'Fitty - cal' perhaps.? (.50 calibre BMG) But not sure about the base of that one ... :unsure:

 

PS. Nominal dimensions for a standard .50 Ball projectile will be 12.7mm x 58.7mm which looks to be a match 

Edited by shippingsteel

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Stoppage Drill
27 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

'Fitty - cal' perhaps.? (.50 calibre BMG) But not sure about the base of that one ... :unsure:

 

 

Burnt-out tracer ?

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shippingsteel

Yes that would explain it ... and also the lack of the expected 'boat-tail' shape. :thumbsup:

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Oldleg
3 hours ago, Stoppage Drill said:

 

Burnt-out tracer ?

I think it is tracer.

 

Am I right in thinking it is WWI? If so, what weapon was it used for?

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assafx

50. cal will be WWII and later.

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Oldleg

Do you know what weapon it would have been?

 

 

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Stoppage Drill

M2 Browning. Vehicle or aircraft mounted.

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MikB

Yes, I think .50 BMG tracer too, most likely WW2.

Looks as if it hit nothing till it landed base-first on softish ground with only a few tens of ft.lb. remaining energy. Almost any trajectory in the air above a few thousand feet, or ground fire over about 30-40 degrees angle could have a similar result.

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vectisitch

yes, i suspect this would have been fired from an aircraft. .50 cal? possibly a p51 over normandy

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Gunner Bailey

I think it's a British made .50 cal which I have seen without the boat tail.

 

Many years ago a friend who dived on wrecks in the North Sea showed me hundreds of .50 cal bullets he had hauled up from a sunken armed trawler. Before disposal we took some out of the cases and the bullets were the same shape as this.

 

So could be from a British Sherman.

 

 

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Stoppage Drill

A Brit armed trawler is more likely to have had .50 Vickers (flat base bullet) than .50 BMG

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Gunner Bailey
5 hours ago, Stoppage Drill said:

A Brit armed trawler is more likely to have had .50 Vickers (flat base bullet) than .50 BMG

 

At 70 + years I don't think we'll ever know. All I can refer to is what I saw. I've still got a couple of the cases and the headstamps are:

 

CP  FGIZ 43 and K43 B.I.Z

 

 

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MikB
2 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said:

 

At 70 + years I don't think we'll ever know. All I can refer to is what I saw. I've still got a couple of the cases and the headstamps are:

 

CP  FGIZ 43 and K43 B.I.Z

 

 

 

Yes we will! :D

 

FG 1z was 0.5" Vickers semi-AP Tracer, and B 1z was incendiary, so Stoppage is right - see here:- https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjRsbemv-XSAhUFJ8AKHXjrDzIQFgg8MAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.defence.gov.au%2Fsydneyii%2FWEB%2FWEB.001.0001.pdf&usg=AFQjCNH7k3zLtgn9BojfJ-mhIRZ_5SwkKw&sig2=tiw3OkYEjt3VDeXZuPvvvg

But all .5" Vickers bullets were shorter and lighter than the pic, and Vickers rifling went widdershins, so the OP's bullet ain't that.

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Gunner Bailey

Thanks for that. I'm not really into headstamps.

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MikB
22 minutes ago, Gunner Bailey said:

Thanks for that. I'm not really into headstamps.

 

If they're Vickers they should be 81mm long  - .50 Browning cases are 99mm long. 

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Gunner Bailey

Vickers it is. Spot on.

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Oldleg

I hope the authors of this site don't mind that we are talking WWII and not I. 

 

When you say Armed Trawler I take it you are talking of the variety of ship. If so, the area I found it in is about 60 miles inland.

 

So, I take it that is possibly a Vickers, then.....    

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shippingsteel

Sorry, there is ample room for confusion here.! Your example bullet posted in the OP is certainly .50 cal BMG Tracer.

It is Gunner Baileys cases and headstamps which are .50 Vickers but this is a totally different animal to your example.

The hollow base on yours (which had me stumped) is where the combustible tracer material has ignited and burnt away.

MikB, didn't the standard .50 Vickers projectile, while being of different dimensions, also feature a double-cannelure.? :huh:

 

ammo-50.gif

Edited by shippingsteel
add image

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MikB
9 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Sorry, there is ample room for confusion here.! Your example bullet posted in the OP is certainly .50 cal BMG Tracer.

It is Gunner Baileys cases and headstamps which are .50 Vickers but this is a totally different animal to your example.

The hollow base on yours (which had me stumped) is where the combustible tracer material has ignited and burnt away.

MikB, didn't the standard .50 Vickers projectile, while being of different dimensions, also feature a double-cannelure.? :huh:

 

 

Yes, at least the ball and SAP did. Some manufacturers used the lower cannelure to stab- or ring-crimp the case neck to assist retention. None of the standard rounds were boat-tailed. 

I wasn't confused - I just hope nobody else was. :D

 

Another very informative site here:-

https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/-5-inch-vickers/-5-inch-vickers-ball

Edited by MikB

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MikB
11 hours ago, Oldleg said:

I hope the authors of this site don't mind that we are talking WWII and not I. 

 

When you say Armed Trawler I take it you are talking of the variety of ship. If so, the area I found it in is about 60 miles inland.

 

So, I take it that is possibly a Vickers, then.....    

 

Well, nobody's made a case for the OP's bullet being 13,2mm. TuF yet - and I think it'd be pretty hard to make a convincing one :D - so it does look as if the main candidate calibre and unlikely also-rans are actually off-topic. Guess it depends on the tolerance of the mods...

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Gunner Bailey

I had been thinking along similar lines with the 15mm BESA comining to mind but being too large. The Germans had a 13mm  Rheinmetall - Borsig MG on the Me 110.

 

Possible candidate?

Edited by Gunner Bailey

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MikB
4 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said:

I had been thinking along similar lines with the 15mm BESA comining to mind but being too large. The Germans had a 13mm  Rheinmetall - Borsig MG on the Me 110.

 

Possible candidate?

 

I had another reason to look into that round lately, but it's built like a tiddy little cannon shell - machined steel body with a copper driving band - not a swaged FMJ, so it's not in the running AFAICS.

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Oldleg

So, am I right in thinking that it is possibly a german shell rather than a Vickers? 

 

Why is base boat shaped? 

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Stoppage Drill
43 minutes ago, Oldleg said:

So, am I right in thinking that it is possibly a german shell rather than a Vickers? 

 

Why is base boat shaped? 

 

It is a .50 BMG tracer. No real room for doubt.

 

Boat tail bullet design aids streamlining by reducing base drag caused by turbulence. The .50 BMG ball is boat tailed, but the tracer has straight, parallel sides to allow space for the tracer compound and a larger tail diameter for visibility.

Edit: Scratch some dirt and corrosion off around the tip and you may find some surviving red paint, which indicates tracer.

Edited by Stoppage Drill

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