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pjwmacro

22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

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pjwmacro   
pjwmacro
On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 19:01, david murdoch said:

 

 

Looking at the Battery as a whole most of the original group appear to have stayed with the battery from start to finish. Therefore the group of additional MGC men (non MMGS) who were with the battery and appear on GSM/NWF1919 roll are additional manpower and not replacing people who left or were demobbed.

I have seen on the NAM site they mention both 19th and 22nd MMG batteries, and also state both those units had a section of armoured cars! 

"Two Motor Machine Gun Batteries, numbers 19 and 22, served during the 3rd Afghan War (1919) and the revolt in Waziristan (1919-1920). They were equipped with Matchless, Premier, Zenith, Enfield and Clyno motorcycles, many of which were fitted with Vickers machine-guns mounted on sidecars. Both units also had armoured car sections."

Also have seen 15th MMG was also involved in 3rd Afghan.

The number's tally for enough men to crew three of these old Indian pattern cars. The AMB units were re equipping with Admiralty pattern Rolls Royce cars being shipped in from Mesopotamia and with combat experienced crews. It may be the old local cars were added to the batteries as a "4th" section, to boost firepower and continue to make use of them. Most of the additional group of MGC(M) men had previous experience in other regiments, and some at least combat experienced in other theatres (some have 14/15 stars). Also number's wise we have roughly the same amount of people later transferring to Tank Corps. So possibly this indicates the section of cars and the car crews were taken over by Tank Corps in December 1919/January 1920 as the rest of the battery was wound up, leaving just enough men to crew them until new post war crews arrived to take over from the "duration of the war men". This group includes several original battery members who possibly swapped sections to be the actual gunners on these cars. Some of our missing ASC drivers may also be hiding on the Tank Corps roll. 

I've noted down previously all original MMGS men who received GSM/NWF clasp from the roll, and apart from the three MMG batteries there are more scattered among various  different AMB units. Some of those may have come in as ex L.A.M.B crews coming with the cars from Mesopotamia. I need to revisit this and check complete headcount for each AMB unit and the other two MMG batteries.

 

Must be lack of practice!  Tried to edit my previous post and managed to remove it all!

Armoured Cars:

No mention of armoured cars or any additional sections in the 22 Bty was diary for 3rd Afghan War. May have already been chipped to Tank Corps / or armoured car companies?  Or just left in Rawalpindi when the Bty deployed?

I will attempt to get to Bovington Tank Museum in next couple of months to check their archives.

Also mentioning that my Grandfather commanded the Peterborough company of the Home Guard during the 2nd War - and during this time he and his company constructed an armoured car - probably very similar to the improvised versions seen in India - so I guess some of the inspiration came from his time with 22 Bty.

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pjwmacro   
pjwmacro
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 19:00, JPJamie said:

Grand father writes: "Sgt. and Cpl in our Battery, taken near Murwa."

Would I be correct in that it appears the stripes "stand out" more than "acting" corporal stripes?

The Sergeant appears to have a Kodak "pull out" camera in his hands.

 

Sgt_Corp_1043x836.png.dede29167282ba6f6ddecee94ae0a634.png

 

 

My parents are less sure - but I am almost convinced that the Sgt in this picture is my Grandfather.  Photos posted below for comparison - 1st was taken in 1921, 2nd in the late 1930s.

20170723_095945-1.jpg

20170723_095933-1.jpg

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pjwmacro   
pjwmacro
On Wednesday, August 09, 2017 at 14:35, JPJamie said:

A huge thanks to my cousin Iain English who sent me a PDF file with many images.  I hope everyone can find the image below helpful as it is labeled 22nd machine gun corps.  There are many more great images of the men I have never seen.  If you click on the image the larger image is displayed. 

 

Thanks to David Murdoch for pointing out this image was taken at Eastbourne, England, most likely 1915 during training.

 

22nd_Battery_1192x790.png.ea14b0cb6897776a34a1d176f74393f8.png

 

My thanks again to James and Iain for supplying this image. Difficult to be 100% and my parents are far from sure - they think either (looking at the photo) the right standing figure in the rear row -OR the one i think is my grandfather  - the last seated figure on the left (looking at photo) in the 2nd row - who appears to be wearing a LCpl stripe. I think the seated figure wins! 

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JPJamie   
JPJamie
On ‎8‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 16:37, david murdoch said:

Here's an example of this on one of the photos Paul posted up a while back. It was maybe done more often, but just cropped out or trimmed off most of the prints that were saved to the albums. I have one of my grandfather's photos and on the side is written "Soldiering in Mespot" - I have the original negative as well.

14967049415581370030325.thumb.jpg.30cd8aeb2bbac1b8e58e220f0a7ca24d.jpg

 

Very satisfying to see this David!  The autographing wasn't popular, so it was probably often cut off.  For the time very innovative, especially when you consider we have cameras that "meta tag" digital images with date, time and precise GPS coordinates for mapping locations.  

Edited by JPJamie

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JPJamie   
JPJamie
On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 13:00, JPJamie said:

Grand father writes: "Sgt. and Cpl in our Battery, taken near Murwa."

Would I be correct in that it appears the stripes "stand out" more than "acting" corporal stripes?

The Sergeant appears to have a Kodak "pull out" camera in his hands.

 

Sgt_Corp_1043x836.png.dede29167282ba6f6ddecee94ae0a634.png

 

 

 

Paul: for some reason, I could not quote your posting with the additional pictures of your Grandfather.  But it's great to know you've finally found an image of him!  It also appears he may have a Kodak Brownie Autograph camera in his hands. 

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pjwmacro   
pjwmacro
10 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

Paul: for some reason, I could not quote your posting with the additional pictures of your Grandfather.  But it's great to know you've finally found an image of him!  It also appears he may have a Kodak Brownie Autograph camera in his hands. 

Thanks James. I don't renember him as a photographer - but my Father has always had an interest - I must ask that!

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david murdoch   
david murdoch
On ‎28‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 21:58, pjwmacro said:

 

Must be lack of practice!  Tried to edit my previous post and managed to remove it all!

Armoured Cars:

No mention of armoured cars or any additional sections in the 22 Bty was diary for 3rd Afghan War. May have already been chipped to Tank Corps / or armoured car companies?  Or just left in Rawalpindi when the Bty deployed?

I will attempt to get to Bovington Tank Museum in next couple of months to check their archives.

Also mentioning that my Grandfather commanded the Peterborough company of the Home Guard during the 2nd War - and during this time he and his company constructed an armoured car - probably very similar to the improvised versions seen in India - so I guess some of the inspiration came from his time with 22 Bty.

Paul it's a bit of a mystery. 

I need to revisit the GSM medal rolls. Previously I only recorded the 22nd Battery members, and others with original MMGS (sub 3000) service numbers. I need to go back and pick out all personnel from the other MMG batteries and also the various AMBs as they are all jumbled up, and see if more of these 321### TC numbers show up, and with which units.

I found a record for one of the 22nd Battery Tank Corps numbers. 321501 Thomas Wilson picked up this number in Rawalpindi 08/03/1919, so going by the proximity of service numbers of the the other 10 presumably would all have joined Tank Corps around this date and in Rawalpindi (including three transfers of original battery members), and before 3rd Afghan kicked off. They are all on the GSM roll under their Tank Corps numbers, as they gained the entitlement while in Tank Corps service,  but noted  as 22nd MMG Battery so by that reckoning would be "attached" in some way, and were involved on NWF 1919.

Edited by david murdoch

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pjwmacro   
pjwmacro
On 2017-8-30 at 17:54, david murdoch said:

Paul it's a bit of a mystery. 

I need to revisit the GSM medal rolls. Previously I only recorded the 22nd Battery members, and others with original MMGS (sub 3000) service numbers. I need to go back and pick out all personnel from the other MMG batteries and also the various AMBs as they are all jumbled up, and see if more of these 321### TC numbers show up, and with which units.

I found a record for one of the 22nd Battery Tank Corps numbers. 321501 Thomas Wilson picked up this number in Rawalpindi 08/03/1919, so going by the proximity of service numbers of the the other 10 presumably would all have joined Tank Corps around this date and in Rawalpindi (including three transfers of original battery members), and before 3rd Afghan kicked off. They are all on the GSM roll under their Tank Corps numbers, as they gained the entitlement while in Tank Corps service,  but noted  as 22nd MMG Battery so by that reckoning would be "attached" in some way, and were involved on NWF 1919.

 

David

As you say - abit of a mystery. I'm certainly not saying the National Army Museum have got it wrong - and the evidence of the photos would support the position that 22 Bty had at least a close association with an armoured car section at some stage. But I am saying that the War Diary (and official history) suggest that there were only the standard 3 motorcycle mg sections involved in operations,with the battery, during the 3rd Afghan War during 1919. So any armoured car section had presumably been chopped away from the battery by this stage.

And I have made no real progress on the issue as to what was happening on the Khyber in Jul 1918!

Regards

Paul

 

Edited to add: the following 2 photos are from the war diary of the Bde HQ at Parachinar - 60th Inf Bde  unit str returns for 30'Jun and 31 Jul 1919 - no mention of armoured cars and 22 Bty str looks about right for 3 sections - and shows 6 guns.

IMG_20170720_153511.jpg

IMG_20170720_152843.jpg

Edited by pjwmacro

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abowell97   
abowell97
On 8/31/2017 at 23:39, pjwmacro said:

the following 2 photos are from the war diary of the Bde HQ at Parachinar - 60th Inf Bde  unit str returns for 30'Jun and 31 Jul 1919 - no mention of armoured cars and 22 Bty str looks about right for 3 sections - and shows 6 guns.

 

As it's dated 30/6/1918 for Parachinar, it surely supports the other image, that the 22nd Battery probably weren't at the Ali Masjid fort in the Khyber Pass in June 1918. (However if I recall, the other image was taken at Murree, so that just confuses things).

 

Great find though Paul.

Edited by abowell97

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pjwmacro   
pjwmacro
1 hour ago, abowell97 said:

 

As it's dated 30/6/1918 for Parachinar, it surely supports the other image, that the 22nd Battery probably weren't at the Ali Masjid fort in the Khyber Pass in June 1918. (However if I recall, the other image was taken at Murree, so that just confuses things).

 

Great find though Paul.

 

Alex -  i am convinced the dating of 1918 against the Jun entry is a clerical mistake - it is meant as  1919. The document is found at the end of the Jun 1919 entries of 60 Inf Bde 3rd Afghan War diary - and does not appear to be misfiled in anyway. The reducing str of 22 Bty would also for with the situation that the 3rd Afghan War had officially "ceased fire" in Jun and they were slowly drawing down before the formal peace treat signature (4th Aug if I recall correctly). The one less officer also fits with the 22 Bty Was Diary - It EP Windsor evacuated and struck off Bty Strengh on 2 Jul 19.

Best Paul20160804_113306.jpg.0926a036f1281723b535b6b1e27683d0.jpg

Edited by pjwmacro

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david murdoch   
david murdoch

Paul.

These strength numbers tally up pretty well with the numbers who were awarded GSM/clasp and noted as 22nd Battery (July figure). This includes the ASC men but also all later the MGC(M) men and eleven who are on the Tank Corps roll but noted as 22nd MMG. So these have  got to be the men who were physically there. By the low number of officers, and going with your grandfather's experience probably using experienced NCOs as section commanders by this time.

So we are still not accounting a couple of officers and another 16 original battery members who did not qualify for GSM (the ones in blue on the spreadsheet). They were still in India and demobbed same days as the others. Either left behind in Rawalpindi or possibly doing "policing" duties elsewhere, or by then transferred to other units and replaced by the MGC(M) people.

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abowell97   
abowell97
5 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Alex -  i am convinced the dating of 1918 against the Jun entry is a clerical mistake - it is meant as  1919. 

Ah, fair enough. 

I feel the activity at Ali Masjid might stay a mystery, especially due to conflicting photos with info on where the 22nd Bty was around that time.

 

So elements of the Battery had split up by 1919? It seems likely that W.Patrick wasn't around for the 3rd Afghan War, and neither was JP. Jamieson.

Unsure if they would have returned home or been stationed elsewhere, but it seems odd that they wouldn't have been utilised if they were in the region at the time of the war.

 

Regards, 

Alex.

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david murdoch   
david murdoch
2 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Ah, fair enough. 

I feel the activity at Ali Masjid might stay a mystery, especially due to conflicting photos with info on where the 22nd Bty was around that time.

 

So elements of the Battery had split up by 1919? It seems likely that W.Patrick wasn't around for the 3rd Afghan War, and neither was JP. Jamieson.

Unsure if they would have returned home or been stationed elsewhere, but it seems odd that they wouldn't have been utilised if they were in the region at the time of the war.

 

Regards, 

Alex.

Alex.

Looking at the spread sheet, the later incomers were too a man involved in 3rd Afghan war. By this time also have 11 men who have Tank Corps numbers dating from March 1919 - they appear on the Tank Corps medal roll and not the MGC roll, but their unit is still listed as 22nd MMG. At the same time there is a group of original battery members who did not get GSM/clasp, so must have been elsewhere  -  this including Walter Patrick and JP Jamieson. Looking at the demob dates the two groups mix again and demobbed on the same days. So by this appears they were still in India, but not in the area that qualified for the GSM. They may have been swapped out to put some combat experienced men into the battery prior to going up to Parachinar. Most of these incomers had previous experience either in India or other theatres, and some of them actually pre war service. As Paul's document states 6 Vickers guns, that is all three sections for sure and the photo at Parachinar looks to have enough bikes that is probably the whole battery parked there.

Apart from one or two replacements this  implies that about 1/3rd of the battery were swapped out with new men (some to each section would be the logical thing) and the original battery men must have doing something else outside of the war area. Are there any other photos that show armoured cars of any type?

 

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pjwmacro   
pjwmacro
14 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Alex.

Looking at the spread sheet, the later incomers were too a man involved in 3rd Afghan war. 

Apart from one or two replacements this  implies that about 1/3rd of the battery were swapped out with new men (some to each section would be the logical thing) and the original battery men must have doing something else outside of the war area. 

 

 

It would be really interesting to find out what those who weren't deployed to Parachinar were up to - the answer must be out there somewhere.

 

And interesting when you think my grandfather was in Egypt approx Aug-Dec 18 - on his RAF training.  Yet when the main War ended and the RAF decided they didn't need him - he was returned to India and 22 Bty rather than being allowed to return to UK to de-mob.  And as David says - it does appear the battery pretty much came back together in the autumn of 1919 for those who were de-mobbing (rather than continuing to serve with armoured cars/ Tank Corps) to do so in a relatively concentrated period - Oct 19 through to Jan/Feb 20,

 

Regards, Paul 

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pjwmacro   
pjwmacro

Lt Charles Robert Herbert Farmer.  Born 20 Feb 1898, died May 1979. Was the youngest of 5 brothers who served in WW1, Sons of James Herbert and Edith Gertrude Farmer. The eldest George, returned from the States to enlist in the HAC. All survived less son No 2, Lt James Douglas Herbert Farmer, RFA, killed near Ypres, 4 Nov 1914. The photo of the family is held in the IWM "Bond of Sacrifice" collection. Charles was educated at Gresham School (of which he later became a governor and where his son Michael was also educated). Charles was a member of the School XI which in the last days of Jul 1914 played the Gresham Old Boys. 6 of the team were killed during the war.

Charles was commissioned 24 Nov 1915 into 18th Hussars and was attached to the MGC(M). We do not think he was in the Eastbourne 22 Bty photo, but he shipped to India  onboard the SS Beltana 26 Feb 1916 for service with 22 MMG Bty.

I am in touch with some of his descendants but they know very little of his time India. They tell me that in 1919 he went to join his eldest brother George in California. Although he appears in the Jan 1919 Indian Army Officer List, my assumption is Charles did not go to Parachinar with the Bty for the 3rd Afghan War.

Charles married (in Godalming, Surrey) in 1928 to Kathleen Mary Hayes. They had a son, Michael, since deceased, but Michael and Christina also had a son, (that I am aware of) - Christian. 

20170905_140151_resized.jpg

image.jpg

Charles, seated front row, L (looking at photo)

large_000000 (1).jpg

Charles seated in front

large_000000.jpg

Edited by pjwmacro

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pjwmacro

1652 Sjt William Welsh. Managed to do some digging into Sjt Welsh - although sadly no photo of him (yet!) According to his commissioning paperwork he was b 22 Aug 1885, Dalbeattie Scotland and enlisted into MMGS 9 Jun 1915. His fathers occupation is given as "Sadler" and his own civilian employment as "commercial traveller". Permanent address given as 77 Copland St, Dalbeattie.  William went overseas on 26 Feb 1916, presumably with 22 MMG Bty as the Bty is given as his unit throughout his file. He joined the OCU 20 Oct 1918 and proceeded to the dispersal centre 13 May 1919 ( for de-mobbing) - so wasn't involved in the 3rd Afghan War. He was appointed Temp 2Lt Highland Light Infantry 10Jun 1919, which was gazetted 14 Jul 1919. He relinquished his commission 1 Sep 1921. He wrote  to the War Office 27 Jul 1922 giving an address of the Bangkok Dock Co Ltd, asking for a Victory Medal - which so far as I am aware he wasn't entitled to -but his file isn't clear whether it was awarded or not.

IMG_20170907_173621.jpg

IMG_20170907_173938.jpg

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abowell97   
abowell97
On 9/7/2017 at 23:42, pjwmacro said:

1652 Sjt William Welsh. Managed to do some digging into Sjt Welsh - although sadly no photo of him (yet!)

Thanks for sharing the info Paul.

 

Great research as always, slightly irritating that we probably have a fair few photos with him on, it's just putting all the names to the faces... same with a lot of those named in the Battery.

 

Regards, 

Alex.

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pjwmacro   
pjwmacro
On 2017-9-9 at 17:48, abowell97 said:

Thanks for sharing the info Paul.

 

Great research as always, slightly irritating that we probably have a fair few photos with him on, it's just putting all the names to the faces... same with a lot of those named in the Battery.

 

Regards, 

Alex.

Patience Alex, patience! A topic on this forum can run for years. This has been going for less than 6 months yet we already have 600+ posts and over 10,000 views (although a number of those are doubtless the three of us and David scrolling through). More importantly we have got 3 descendants of nearly 70 men in touch with each other - and that doesn't count Charles Farmer's family with whom I have comms. In time we will find other descendants who will add to the story. Your map on google will help. Maybe contributions will emerge from the most unlikely sources  - but I am convinced more will surface. And we have a lead I am following up in the Tank Museum - and I haven't checked IWM or NAM yet!

Specifically with regards Sgt Welsh. We now have a DoB we can follow up on. I am about to see if I can find his birth records, these should id his parents and hopefully we can then start to identify if he had siblings, what happened to him post war, whether he married and whether he has descendants. In due course I am sure we will either find a photo - or locate someone who can identify him in our current pictures.

Best, Paul

 

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pjwmacro   
pjwmacro
3 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Specifically with regards Sgt Welsh. We now have a DoB we can follow up on. I am about to see if I can find his birth records, these should id his parents and hopefully we can then start to identify if he had siblings, what happened to him post war, whether he married and whether he has descendants. In due course I am sure we will either find a photo - or locate someone who can identify him in our current pictures.

Best, Paul

 

 

Based on William Welsh's DoB, in Dalbeattie, and his Father's occupation as a "Saddler" (all given in his commissioning paperwork) I have located the Welsh family in the 1891and 1901 censuses and Williams birth record is held on Scotland's People. HIs father was  also a William, born 1851 and died between the 1891 and 1901 censuses. His Mother Helen was born in 1852.  William (jnr) had 6 siblings, Helen b 1878, Thomas b 1881, Elizabeth, b 1882, Agnes b 1884, John b 1888 and Edward Frederick b 1891. By 1901 the 2 eldest girls were not living at home (presumably married) the remainder still lived with their widdowed Mother. John was a Tailor, Agnes a Tailor Machinist and William is listed as an Ironmonger Apprentice.  There must be some descendants! Not yet tracked William post war - butwe know he was working in Bangkok for the Bangkok Dock Company in Jul 1922.

Regards, Paul

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pjwmacro   
pjwmacro

Still looking for copies of MOMAGU.  Anyone able to help?

 

Thanks, Paul

 

 

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abowell97   
abowell97
14 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Still looking for copies of MOMAGU.  Anyone able to help?

 

It doesn't look like there is any text archive on the internet outside of the introductory page. (No archives with recognised text, however there may be images of it). 

 

Do you think it was always published as an insert of the 'Motor Cycle Magazine', or seperately? If it was, it's possible editions could be in some of the archived magazines, however I'm not too sure.

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pjwmacro   
pjwmacro
On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 00:46, abowell97 said:

 

It doesn't look like there is any text archive on the internet outside of the introductory page. (No archives with recognised text, however there may be images of it). 

 

Do you think it was always published as an insert of the 'Motor Cycle Magazine', or seperately? If it was, it's possible editions could be in some of the archived magazines, however I'm not too sure.

Alex

Agree with above - no separate archive on the net. I suspect MOMAGU would have been produced locally and would not routinely have been reproduced in The Motorcycle.  I suspect a copy of the 1st edition got sent back from which the page was reproduced - just as a one off. So I think we are looking for copies which will have survived with family and friends - in private collections - along with photo albums etc. I'm sure they are out there - but it'll take luck and patience for them to surface. Possibly filed in a museum  (IWM, NAM or Tank Museum conceivably) archive or could come up in auction somewhere perhaps. Fingers crossed.

Best , Paul 

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