Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

pjwmacro

22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

Recommended Posts

mcassell

I have been away from this forum for a while so what I have to say may be redundant. It would appear that 22 Battery was briefly involved in the "suppression of disorder" following the Amritsar massacre.    According to the Disorders Enquiry Committee evidence,   a Major C.W.J. Smith DSO, 2/54th. Sikhs, F.F., arrived in Wazirabad from Rawalpindi to act as Martial Law administrator and was accompanied by 22nd. Motor Machine Gun Battery, MGC, under Major Molony.  Molony had orders to form a moveable column and on 19 April, with a half squadron of 19th Lancers and two sections of 22nd Battery, left Wazirabad for Lyallpur.  For the next two weeks, the column operated in the Gujranwala area and was involved in the arrest of over a hundred people suspected of being responsible for the disturbances in the area.  On 29 April, 22nd Battery made a round trip of 114 miles to bring in two suspects from a remote village. As part of a policy of “Showing the Flag”, the battery gave a demonstration of machine gun firing at a large durbar held at Sheikhupura on 4 May 1919.  The moveable column returned to Wazirabad on 7 May with 22nd Battery proceeding shortly thereafter back to Rawalpindi. It would, be interesting to know if any photographs of this activity exist.

 

 

 

Edited by mcassell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pjwmacro
On 23/10/2017 at 17:57, mcassell said:

I have been away from this forum for a while so what I have to say may be redundant. It would appear that 22 Battery was briefly involved in the "suppression of disorder" following the Amritsar massacre.

 

I too have been lax about getting on the forum over the last couple of months.  But this is fascinating and not something I was previously aware of previously.  I am just trying to locate the Disorders Enquiry Committee reports at present - a google search appears to have done the trick, but I haven't yet successfully found the passage you refer to.

I certainly have pictures in my grandfathers album of MG firing demonstrations - but I don't think I could specifically tie them down to these locations / dates. @JPJamie or @abowell97 might have more luck with their albums - although we are not completely clear if their relatives were still with the Battery at this time.  And Apr 19 is just about the time when Molony was warned to return to UK, before the 3rd Afghan War and of course this, intervened.  Definitely another piece in the jigsaw.  Thank you.

Best, Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
abowell97
52 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

I certainly have pictures in my grandfathers album of MG firing demonstrations - but I don't think I could specifically tie them down to these locations / dates. @JPJamie or @abowell97 might have more luck with their albums - although we are not completely clear if their relatives were still with the Battery at this time. 

 I'll certainly check this weekend. 

 

I know I have some firing demonstrations pics that have been posted on here before somewhere, but I'll double check. It doesn't help that so little of the photos I have are dated...

 

I get the feeling that both Walter Patrick and JP Jamieson left India, or at least the NWF early in 1919, though I have little to back this up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mcassell
14 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

I too have been lax about getting on the forum over the last couple of months.  But this is fascinating and not something I was previously aware of previously.  I am just trying to locate the Disorders Enquiry Committee reports at present - a google search appears to have done the trick, but I haven't yet successfully found the passage you refer to.

I certainly have pictures in my grandfathers album of MG firing demonstrations - but I don't think I could specifically tie them down to these locations / dates. @JPJamie or @abowell97 might have more luck with their albums - although we are not completely clear if their relatives were still with the Battery at this time.  And Apr 19 is just about the time when Molony was warned to return to UK, before the 3rd Afghan War and of course this, intervened.  Definitely another piece in the jigsaw.  Thank you.

Best, Paul

The relevant volume of the Disorders Enquiry Committee is volume 5.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pjwmacro
1 hour ago, mcassell said:

The relevant volume of the Disorders Enquiry Committee is volume 5.

 I can find the report online but it doesn't seem to mention the battery.  I cannot find the evidence Volume 5 online.  Do you have a link - or are you looking at hard copy.

 

Thanks, Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pjwmacro
On 10/23/2017 at 17:57, mcassell said:

The moveable column returned to Wazirabad on 7 May with 22nd Battery proceeding shortly thereafter back to Rawalpindi.

 

It cannot have been that slowly.  According to the Battery's War Diary for the 3rd Afghan War, when they were sent forward to Parachinar as reinforcement to the Kurram Force  they left Rawalpindi by train at 0200 hours 14th May 1919, arriving at Kohat at 1300 hours.  Over the following 3 days the battery convoyed it's machines and petrol forward to Parachinar, being complete there by 2000 hours 17 May.

 

Regards, Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
david murdoch
15 hours ago, abowell97 said:

  I'll certainly check this weekend. 

 

I know I have some firing demonstrations pics that have been posted on here before somewhere, but I'll double check. It doesn't help that so little of the photos I have are dated...

 

I get the feeling that both Walter Patrick and JP Jamieson left India, or at least the NWF early in 1919, though I have little to back this up. 

The pictures of firing demonstrations, one was labelled as being at Kohat - one shows Indian army officers, and what looks like Indian troops in the background.The other (the one marked Kohat) shows what looks like tribesmen, but may be militia - one of them appears to be wearing an officer's cut jacket over civilian clothes.

Kohat_Officer_559x770.png.8816e9bee00a003db631408cc0f0d3b0.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pjwmacro
On 10/25/2017 at 15:05, pjwmacro said:

 

It cannot have been that slowly.  According to the Battery's War Diary for the 3rd Afghan War, when they were sent forward to Parachinar as reinforcement to the Kurram Force  they left Rawalpindi by train at 0200 hours 14th May 1919, arriving at Kohat at 1300 hours.  Over the following 3 days the battery convoyed it's machines and petrol forward to Parachinar, being complete there by 2000 hours 17 May.

 

Regards, Paul

Apologies to @mcassell - just realised I have misread your "shortly", in post #626 as "slowly" - hence my comment quoted above, from #631.  Nevertheless, interesting that they must have turned around pretty swiftly if they were in Wazirabad on 7 May, i assume it would have taken at least a couple of days to get back to Rawalpindi.

 

I cannot find the evidence Volume 5 online.  Do you have a link - or are you looking at hard copy?

 

Regards, Paul

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maureene
15 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

I cannot find the evidence Volume 5 online.  Do you have a link - or are you looking at hard copy?

 

I can't see where it specifically says 22nd Battery.

Cheers

Maureen

Edited by Maureene

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pjwmacro
8 hours ago, Maureene said:

Includes Motor Machine Gun Battery under Major Maloney, page 200 Evidence taken before the Disorders Inquiry Committee: Volume V: Gujranwala, Gujrat, Lyallpur and Punjab Provincial. 1920. HathiTrust Digital Library 

 

Thanks Maureen. Maloney will be a mis-spelling of Molony - hence must be 22 Bty.

Best, Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JPJamie
On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 09:52, david murdoch said:

Just found this while searching newspaper archives for Scottish related MMGS articles!

In the Fifeshire Advertiser dated 12th August 1916. This is a thank you letter dated 13th July 1916 from India to the paper from L/Cpl "J. G. Jamieson" MMGS for the receipt of a war fund parcel. Original link below, but managed to cut and save in a readable form.

Interesting for JJ as from his grandfather, but gives some interesting information as to what the battery had done in the first four months on being in India. The dates show again that mail to and from would take about one month. 

Interesting as showing his pre war links with his home town - as he was originally from Dysart (now part of Kirkcaldy).

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0001577/19160812/023/0002

fifeshire advertiser.jpg

 

WOW! 

 

Thanks David for this posting, but first a few things. 

I've been off this site for a while and just decided enough is enough and I need to check in again. 

I even had to reset my password, it's been so long.

 

There are a few things of interest here.  My Grandfather was James P. Jamieson, not James G. Jamieson, however that might just be a miss print.  His father John Jamieson worked at the Linoleum factory in Kirkcaldy, so that all makes sense.       

Edited by JPJamie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
david murdoch
4 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

WOW! 

 

Thanks David for this posting, but first a few things. 

I've been off this site for a while and just decided enough is enough and I need to check in again. 

I even had to reset my password, it's been so long.

 

There are a few things of interest here.  My Grandfather was James P. Jamieson, not James G. Jamieson, however that might just be a miss print.  His father John Jamieson worked at the Linoleum factory in Kirkcaldy, so that all makes sense.       

JP. I've been away a lot  too due to work commitments.

I'm pretty sure it's just a typo in the newspaper of the time - as everything else points to being him. He was born in 1892 at 247 St Clair Street (Sinclairtown) Dysart. The family were still there in 1901 Census at a different street address. I have his birth and marriage certificates in his soldier's file if you don't already have them. I have not pinned him down in 1911 Census. Do you have any idea when he moved? Presumably for work - the letter hints he was in Dysart/Kirkcaldy at least fairly soon before the war. So really he was a Fifer born and raised. I know the street well as it's five minutes down the hill from where my ice hockey team play, and the motorbike shop at the bottom of the hill!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JPJamie
20 hours ago, david murdoch said:

JP. I've been away a lot  too due to work commitments.

I'm pretty sure it's just a typo in the newspaper of the time - as everything else points to being him. He was born in 1892 at 247 St Clair Street (Sinclairtown) Dysart. The family were still there in 1901 Census at a different street address. I have his birth and marriage certificates in his soldier's file if you don't already have them. I have not pinned him down in 1911 Census. Do you have any idea when he moved? Presumably for work - the letter hints he was in Dysart/Kirkcaldy at least fairly soon before the war. So really he was a Fifer born and raised. I know the street well as it's five minutes down the hill from where my ice hockey team play, and the motorbike shop at the bottom of the hill!

 

Once again David you dig up the past superbly!

 

I have a photograph of my Grandfather taken in Dysart.  I did not know the family was still there in 1901 and did not know this address!  I would be most interested in the date of his marriage as it relates to another very relevant (Robert Dawson, who died from wounds received during the third battle of Ypres, Flanders on 27th October 1917) family story.  My Great Grandfather worked at the linoleum factory in Kirkcaldy and my father told me you could smell the factory on the train to Kirkcaldy.  Grandad moved to Hamilton and met my Grandmother while he was living in a flat.  Later he moved to 54 Russell Street, Hamilton.  I often visited my Grandparents on weekends.  It was there I learned about Rangers and Celtic football and how to stay inside (Grandparents were Presbyterians) on Sundays to avoid the Celtic hooligans.  He had a small motor powered bicycle and loved to ride it, but never a real motorcycle or car.   He was a draper by trade after the war and worked for the Hamilton Co-Operative.    Thank you David! 

 

James P. Jamieson

Edited by JPJamie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JPJamie

Belton and Eastbourne MMGS Training Centers.

 

Does anyone know the difference between the huge Belton MMGS training center and Eastbourne training center?  Why were there two centers? 

Did they want to isolate those going to India (the better deal!) from those going to the trenches? 

 

Here is a link to the Belton Training Center on YouTube

 

Edited by JPJamie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
david murdoch
37 minutes ago, JPJamie said:

 

Once again David you dig up the past superbly!

 

I have a photograph of my Grandfather taken in Dysart.  I did not know the family was still there in 1901 and did not know this address!  I would be most interested in the date of his marriage as it related to another very relevant family story.  My Great Grandfather worked at the linoleum factory in Kirkcaldy and my father told me you could smell the factory on the train to Kirkcaldy.  Grandad moved to Hamilton and met my Grandmother while he was living in a flat.  Later he moved to 54 Russell Street, Hamilton.  I often visited my Grandmother (Jessie Orr-Jamieson) on weekends.  It was there I learned about Rangers and Celtic football and how to stay inside (Grandparents were Presbyterians) on Sundays to avoid the Celtic hooligans.  He had a small motor powered bicycle and loved to ride it, but never a real motorcycle or car.   He was a draper by trade after the war and worked for the Hamilton Co-Operative.    Thank you David! 

 

James P. Jamieson

James. I'll send you the family history details by email. Marriage date was 7th January 1922.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JPJamie
42 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

James. I'll send you the family history details by email. Marriage date was 7th January 1922.

 

Perfect and thank you again! 

 

After sharing with some of my family, we're wondering if this clipping may have been written by a "ghost writer" using my Grandfather's name.  There may have been security concerns regarding information appearing on British newspapers from the "front" of the war.   There was probably a strong feeling of how to thank the newspaper for the parcel sent from the employee war fund, with all that in mind.  Maybe I'm wrong here, but the style of writing seems a bit "lofty" for my Grandfather.   

 

Edited by JPJamie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pjwmacro
12 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Belton and Eastbourne MMGS Training Centers.

 

Does anyone know the difference between the huge Belton MMGS training center and Eastbourne training center?  Why were there two centers? 

Did they want to isolate those going to India (the better deal!) from those going to the trenches? 

 

 

 

Jim

Belton (Lincolnshire) was the Machine Gun Corps (Not MMGS) Depot and Training Centre - established in Oct 15, as the Machine Gun Corps itself was formed (incorporating the MMGS) 

 

HQ and main Training Centre of the MMGS was Bisley, (Surrey).  Established (I think) in late 1914 as the MMGS set up as an organisation - it was the depot to which our respective grandfathers would have initially reported.  I remained (again I think) the depot of the MGC(Motors) as the MMGS were incorporated into the MGC.  However, training for Heavy Branch MGC  (which eventually became the Tank Corps) was shifted away from Bisley, initially to Elevden, (Norfolk) in Apr 16, and subsequently in autumn 16 to Bovington Dorset.

 

I am less clear how Eastbourne fits into the picture.  It was a large training centre in its own right - but not I think dedicated to MMGS/MGC(M).  It may have been used as a holding camp once troops had been through basic training or was possibly just a "training run" destination.  I think Motors Batteries also used Belton Park for this purpose - certainly there are photos of Motors Batteries, which appear to have been taken at Belton.

 

Regards, Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pjwmacro
11 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

After sharing with some of my family, we're wondering if this clipping may have been written by a "ghost writer" using my Grandfather's name.   

 

Jim you could well be right (although I think "style" as a whole was more formal in those days even amongst workers and soldiers).  It`s still an interesting clipping - and it is clearly based on information your grandfather sent, as it corroborates Fielder's letter to Motorcycle.

 

Best, Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
david murdoch
1 hour ago, JPJamie said:

 

Perfect and thank you again! 

 

After sharing with some of my family, we're wondering if this clipping may have been written by a "ghost writer" using my Grandfather's name.  There may have been security concerns regarding information appearing on British newspapers from the "front" of the war.   There was probably a strong feeling of how to thank the newspaper for the parcel sent from the employee war fund, with all that in mind.  Maybe I'm wrong here, but the style of writing seems a bit "lofty" for my Grandfather.   

 

The letter is most likely copied from a hand written letter which may explain the typo and possibly some "journalistic licence" in the wording. It can be seen in the general newspapers they reports often from censored / filtered information. However going by The Motorcycle they published many things  - naming units and stating how many MMG batteries were in France on a given date, but then later this changes to "a battery in France" or "somewhere in India".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×