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trajan

Medals of the Central Powers

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trajan

Thanks Kim!

 

On the EKI: I remember seeing a reference once to a German book on the EK and was hoping that you might (I) have a copy, or (II) be able to provide the title details. There is a silver mark and what might be a maker's mark beneath it at the top of the pin, close to the hinge, but I haven't cleaned that area up yet - nor do I have a powerful enough magnifying glass for that matter...

 

As for the new EKII grouping, I am pleased with it (and especially like the little stick pin!) as I have always wanted a group with a centenary medal - a real old soldier for service in WW1.

 

Best wishes,

 

Julian

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trajan
1 minute ago, GreyC said:

Hi Trajan,

could it be this one:

 

'Tis indeed the one! Many thanks - and also thanks for commenting on the 'new' group!

 

Julian

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AOK4
On 14-8-2017 at 17:48, depaor01 said:

I hope nobody minds my posting this here. Although not a medal, it's an item I picked up on a certain site and I believe would correspond with the British Memorial Plaque. The "Gedenkblatt für die Angehörigen unserer gefallenen Helden" or "Remembrance Certificate for the relatives of our fallen heroes". I think it's quite beautiful.

 

As far as I can gather from German Wikipedia it was designed by graphic artist Emil Doepler. It measures 44 cm x 32 cm and was  commissioned on 27 January 1915 by Kaiser Wilhelm II on the occasion of his birthday. One was issued to next of kin of every man killed.

 

Mine commemorates Musketier Christian Kemmerle of 6. Bad. Inf-Regts. "Kaiser Friedrich III." Nr. 114. He fell at Vermelles and Volksbund states he is buried in Lens-Sallaumin but not in a marked grave.

 

If anyone has any further info I'd be very happy to receive it.

 

20170814_161234.jpg.21835347156df6b95e4ff0068809ad19.jpg

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

This is the Prussian Gedenkblatt. I know there are other types of these documents for Saxon soldiers, Bavarian soldiers and Brunswick soldiers.

 

Jan

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GreyC

Hi,

just to give you an idea how much time passed, before soldiers who had been wounded or KIA were listed in the official Verlustlisten:

Christian Kimmerle (from near Böblingen) was listed as KIA exactly one month after his death on 2nd Jan 1915.

GreyC

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robins2
On 9/1/2017 at 10:26, trajan said:

 

It is indeed a very attractive piece - I have not seen anything like it before so thanks for showing it to us all. And interesting to see the man is shown with a 'short' knife-type bayonet, which began to be used by some units in early 1915

 

Back to medals as such, and so one recently received from a reputable German dealer, one of those non-magnetic EK I Klasse, a bowed version. I understand that there are two differing opinions on these. One, they were made with a brass or similar core for naval use; two, they were made late in the late war period as iron became scarcer. Of the two explanations, the first seems to me to be more likely - but (Kim will, I think, have the answer), I believe there is a German book on these? Whatever, a nice addition to the collection (with another EK II group to be posted anon!)

 

 

EK I 01.jpg

EK I 02.jpg

is that a makers mark at top of pin???

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trajan

Yes, I think it is the silver content stamp (the rectangle) with the maker's mark below (the square), but haven't cleaned it out yet and need a more powerful magnifying glass also...

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depaor01
15 hours ago, GreyC said:

Hi,

just to give you an idea how much time passed, before soldiers who had been wounded or KIA were listed in the official Verlustlisten:

Christian Kimmerle (from near Böblingen) was listed as KIA exactly one month after his death on 2nd Jan 1915.

GreyC

Thanks for that GreyC. One wonders if that gap in time corresponded to an anxious month for the next of kin not knowing the man's fate. Thanks for the Böblingen info.

Dave

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depaor01

I wasn't aware of silver content marks on the EK1. Mine has a KO maker mark only at the bottom below the loop and a different hinge arrangement. Pics attached. Also never understood the significance of the award being magnetic or otherwise. 

 

Living and learning!

 

Dave20170903_164522.jpg.60e0a4bd59608bd67c47be2d7eeed147.jpg20170903_164445.jpg.8ca01af16732dd2ad1b4066275a523e4.jpg20170903_164545.jpg.8f009b3e82a3962faf743b0d152d9b6a.jpg

 

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trajan

Believe you me, I am a beginner in all this but there are two basic level web-pages I have found useful on the EKI and II markings at: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/stuff/1914_EK1_makers.htm and http://www.kaisersbunker.com/stuff/1914_EK2_makers.htm 

 

From my very limited knowledge of these I understand that some but not all EKI and EKII were marked with their silver content see the web sites above.

 

On the reasons for the non-magnetic ones, there is some discussion here: http://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/eisernes-kreuz-1-klasse-1914.html

Note the bit saying "Es sind auch Innenkreuze aus Nichteisenmetall bekannt. Ob diese, wie oft behauptet nur für die Marine vorgesehen waren, kann man bezweifeln.", so they exist and perhaps were for naval use.

 

Julian

.

Edited by trajan

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trajan

Ok, here is one for you phaleterists to get into!

 

I have done an analysis, but this new system does not allow me to copy-paste it here...  So has to come as a file... Sorry!!! HEY GWF ADMIN, what happened with this update! 

 

Well, chaps and lassies, here are the photographs and here also the text although I am bu**ered as how they will appear here...

 

 

 image.png.9f864e496c8e31fada834c468026f3a7.png

 

 

 

 

DSCN2186A.jpg

DSCN2187A.jpg

DSCN2190A.jpg

DSCN2191A.jpg

Edited by trajan
Corrections

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trajan

A follow up really on the two 3.Klasse Red Cross Medals above... The way the first of these two (the 1917+ zinc version) hangs so loosely on the suspension ring in the mounted section. This suspension ring is of a different metal from the 1917+ 3rd Class 'Feinzinc' medal hanging from it, and the medal hangs lower than the others as well as coming  before the bronze (pre-1917) 3rd Class medal, when if anything there should be something else before that Feinzinc version. So, does that go with my idea that an original silver 2.Klasse medal has gone missing here?

 

Honestly, I am open all to all comments on this group - but my feeling (and hope!) is somebody from the regular army medical side (so the EK II and Ottoman medal, and Hindenburg and veterans ''honours' also), who then retired (for age or medical reasons) to become an orderly / administrator for the Red Cross (so the RC awards and Prussian and Bavarian crosses) in or about 1916/1917? 

 

Julian

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear Julian,

The group looks perfectly kosher to me. Hang on to it!

Only two things: 1) the VdK für Kriegshilfe is showing the reverse (should be turned around). 2) The Rotkreuzmedaille in silver (or feinzink) II. Klasse is only hanging down, because it has slipped out of its orignially-mounted position in the folds - and the securing threads (see the bronze award next to it) have broken and are missing. Easy to repair.

The felt backing is unfortunately missing, as is the brooch bar, but one looks at the group from the obverse, anyway. The last medal is a non-official Verein award, often seen pre-1933.

A super and unusual group, especially with the Ottoman Medjidieh award, suggesting perhaps Gallipoli service...!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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trajan
9 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

... The group looks perfectly kosher to me. Hang on to it! ... Only two things: 1) the VdK für Kriegshilfe is showing the reverse (should be turned around). 2) The Rotkreuzmedaille in silver (or feinzink) II. Klasse is only hanging down, because it has slipped out of its orignially-mounted position in the folds - and the securing threads (see the bronze award next to it) have broken and are missing. Easy to repair. ... A super and unusual group, especially with the Ottoman Medjidieh award, suggesting perhaps Gallipoli service...!

 

Dear Kim, 

 

Thanks for your comments! As you can imagine it was such an odd lot that it needed some looking at and quite a lot of thought before buying it at the cost of an arm and a leg, but I realised I would probably never see anything similar again in the near or even distant future - and it has certainly given me a few enjoyable hours of research!

 

I did wonder about the VdK being back-to-front, but the wear pattern shows that that was how it was mounted. And a Google search turned up two others mounted that way, as with the one below (shown for reference only from GMIC post-166-1148427129), so it does seem to have happened now and again!

 

I take your point about the zinc Red Cross medal having slipped down, and the suspension ring evidently needs a subtle stitch... However, why have two 3rd class medals here?  As I understand it, a Third Class was a prerequisite for the Second Class, and if both were awarded, then both were worn - and so the two ribbons side-by-side. But it makes no sense to me to have two 3rd Class medals on display... And there is no indication that this zinc one was ever 'silvered' or enamelled so that it could pass as a Red Cross 2nd Class. That's why I am thinking that an original silver and enamel 2nd class has gone missing and was replaced with this zinc one - although why somebody who knew that Red Cross medal was needed here (from the ribbon) could have mixed up a 2nd Class with a 3rd Class is beyond me!

 

The Gallipoli connection is certainly a possible. And given how it seems that medics in the army could receive these Red Cross medals, then the initially anomalous 'Hindenburg Cross' and veterans award will fit. So, perhaps a serving medic after all???

 

Best wishes,

 

Julian

post-166-1148427129.jpg

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AOK4

I am not that enthousiastic about the medal bar. The last one shouldn´t be there as it was replaced by the Hindenburg cross. It shouldn´t have the swords device, just as the Hindenburg cross shouldn´t have the swords.

The first 3rd class red cross medal should be a second class probably indeed.

 

I don´t like the white thread used on the back to fasten the ribbons either.

 

Just my opinion though... I have seen plenty of weird or "impossible" combinations before but I have never bid on those unless it would have a contemporary pic of the bar in wear.

 

Jan

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear Julian,

By all means leave the VdK as is - and nestle the ring of the feinzink medal into the folds, just like the bronze one: a few stiches and Voila! like new. 

I do not share Jan's dislike of the group, quite the contrary. As I see it, the feinzink and the bronze (with like ribbons) are two different classes of the same medal. I doubt very much whether anyone fiddled with these.

Again, Jan's comment (sorry, Jan!) about the last Verein-like medal having been replaced by the Hindenburg: this ex-medic, doctor, what-have-you put up all he got! The Verein-type medals was being issued by the Veterans Vereine to themselves, long before the Hindenberg medal was thought of...

Make those very minor repairs and you have got a good group - with Gallipoli (or wherever the Germans stiffened the Turkish troops) connection. Super!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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trajan
On 12/4/2017 at 11:20, AOK4 said:

I am not that enthousiastic about the medal bar. The last one shouldn´t be there as it was replaced by the Hindenburg cross. It shouldn´t have the swords device, just as the Hindenburg cross shouldn´t have the swords. ... The first 3rd class red cross medal should be a second class probably indeed. ... I don´t like the white thread used on the back to fasten the ribbons either. ... Just my opinion though... I have seen plenty of weird or "impossible" combinations before but I have never bid on those unless it would have a contemporary pic of the bar in wear.

 

Hi Jan, 

 

I certainly spent a long time wondering about this one, and of course there should not be a "Hindenburg Cross" and a veterans badge there together - but I think only if this assemlage was worn by a serving member of the armed forces after 1934/35! I can't find the law right now but my notes say it is Verordnung zur Ausführung des Gesetzes über Titel, Orden und Ehrenzeichen vom 14.November 1935, a Supplement to the Law of 7th April, 1933, which had originally instituted the ban on wearing unofficial veterans badges, but which I think applied to serving military personnel only... 

 

A 'Combatants' HK with Red Cross medals would certainly seem odd(!) - but is not without parallel! Have a look at this group: https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/berliner/catalogue-id-bahg10000/lot-4086fb7c-459c-42dd-8f47-a49d01669c78 It belonged to a Dr.Bernhard Zscech, a German officer who served with the Ottoman army in WW1, and who is listed as a Hekim Binbaşı or "Physician Major" in a Turkish list of German military officers in Turkey in WW1. He accumulated, inter alia, an EK I and II; a Prussian Red Cross Medal 3rd Class; a 'Hindenburg Cross' for a Frontkaempfer'; and a row of Ottoman awards - Liakat-Medal, in silver with sabres, Imtiyaz medal in silver with sabres, an "Iron Crescent", or Harp madalya - and a Mecidiye Order 3rd Class. He is listed as serving at the Deniz Asker Hastanesinde or 'Sailors Hospital' and the Taşkışla hastanesi or 'Hospice' in Constantinople. I have not been able to find out anything more about him yet but there is apparently an article I need to track down on: "Deutsche Offiziere in der Türkei, Reichsarchiv, 1940", which may be published in Turkish as: “Türkiye’de Alman Askerî Misyonu Subaylar-Generaller-Heyetler”, and which should be in Türk Tarihi Dergisi, 1986-1987 - which we don't have but I think I can find a copy somewhere!

 

Now, an interesting thing here is a quick comparison of the Zscech group with the Captain T.Zlocisti group I linked to in post 262 - https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/berliner/catalogue-id-bahg10000/lot-4086fb7c-459c-42dd-8f47-a49d01669c78... He is described in the sale literature there as "the Chief German Medical Officer of the German Red Cross Mission to Constantinople in WWI" - and he is NOT in my existing Turkish list of German officers serving in Turkey, indicating he was non-military. His group has an EK I and II, and inter alia Red Cross Medals 2nd and 3rd Class, the "Gallipoli"  Star, and a Medjidieh Order 4th class - but no 'Hindenburg Cross...

 

So, an apparent progression here. A serving medical officer (Major Zscech) can have an EK I and II, a Red Cross 3rd Class, a 'Hindenburg Cross', and a Medjidieh Order 3rd Class. A medic representing the Red Cross and attached to to the German forces (Zlocisti) has an 'honorary' rank of Captain. and an EK I and II, Red Cross 2nd and 3rd Class, and a Medjidieh Order 4th Class...

 

Hoping you are still awake! ;)I will come back to these points in a later post - time to pick kids up from footie...

 

But with all that bit settled for now - I hope to your approval - I am glad we agree on the absence of the silver 2nd Class... And the white threads are cotton, not synthetic, so not a major problem there, although the metal mounting bar is certainly not a German Imperial, Weimar, or 3rdReich pattern... 

 

Yes, a photograph of the honoree wearing the things would be nice... Lots of medal-group parallels around, but I need to find some actual photographs of guys who fit the relevant criteria - Combatants HK and Red Cross Medals, and Combatants HK with veteran 'badges'...

 

Julian

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear All, and Julian,

I don't go along with 'should not be there'.

It obviously is there: or rather, they - namely the Hindenburg and the Veteran's Verein medals - because the recipient had them put there by a local medal mounter, as was en vogue in those days. (My wife's maternal grandfather had a somewhat similar group, however with the Verein stuff loose, whereas the Official medals were mounted.)

I doubt if it was to a serving soldier, but who knows? As I said before, it is a Keeper group and looks as authentic as anything I have seen. 

Kindest regards,

Kim.

PS: This reminds me of a question of mine posed elswhere on the Forum. An Indian-born IARO was attd 1917 to 1-127 Baluch and which shifted to a Theatre of War (Bushire) on or about Nov 1918, and later took part in the campaign (S. Persia), had a MIC which was blank apart from his rank, name, unit and note about his GSM S. Persia. Pundits have said (Es nicht sein kann was nicht sein darf): no BWM and Victory entry on MIC: therefore no BWM and Victory. To complicate matters, a Victory, engraved to the officer, has been seen. 

Edited by Kimberley John Lindsay

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Khaki

My understanding of the Hindenburg Cross, was that it was to replace the variety of unofficial medals, although the wearing of the earlier association medals was officially discouraged, to my knowledge it was never illegal, the Marine cross being often seen. So I would have to agree with Kim's observations.

 

khaki

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trajan

Well, just to bore you all... The Reichsgesetzblatt 1935, no. 127, p.1341-1347, gives the full text of the Verordung zur Ausfuehrung des Getsetzes ueber Titel, Orden und Ehrenzeichen of November 1935, and Part 4.3 says :

 

“Von den in der Nachkreigzeit fuer die Teilnahme am Weltkrieg oder an den Nachkriegskaempfen oder aus diesem Alnass geschaffenen Orden und Ehreneseichnen sin nur das Ehrenkreuz des Weltkrieges, das Schlesische Bewaehrungsabzeichnen (Schlesischer Adler) und das Balkenkreuz zum Tragen gestattet. Allle uebrigen  Abzeichnen, z,B das Flandernkreuz, das Langemarctkreuz, die Regimentserinnerungenskreuze, Grenz-Schutz und Freikorpsabzeichene, Feldehrenabzeichen, der Schlagetershild usw. Durfen nicht getragen werden."

 

So, yes - only the 'Hindenburg', Schlesischer Eagle, and Balkans Cross, were perimitted

 

Oh, and another thing... The law applies to all, not just military, as I though...

 

But, as Kim indicated above, from his family collection, what the law says (and demands) and what people do are different. This chappie here in Wehrmacht uniform has a Flanders Cross next to his 'Hindenburg' - from: http://antique-photos.com/en/maingalleryap/third-reich-old-decorations/tr-old-66-1110.html 

tr_old_66_20130701_1838322649.jpg

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trajan
On 12/5/2017 at 17:14, trajan said:

...  So, an apparent progression here. A serving medical officer (Major Zscech) can have ... a Medjidieh Order 3rd Class. A medic representing the Red Cross and attached to to the German forces (Zlocisti) has an 'honorary' rank of Captain ... a Medjidieh Order 4th Class...

 

Coming back to my own particular group, the limited evidence I have been able to check from Turkish and German on-line sources indicates that those Germans in Ottoman service with the rank of Major, Hauptmann, Oberleutnant, or Leutnant, might receive the Medjidieh Order 3rd or 4th Class,  but the only listed example of the award of a 5th Class Order I found was also to a Leutnant, so no clear progression... He looked promising, as he was from Bavaria and there is that Bavarian 'Ludwig' Cross for 'home service' in that group - but this Leutnant was Vincenz Müller who went on to become commander of the Wehrmacht's 4th Army at Minsk and then C-in-C of the DDR army...

 

Not my chap - but there are some nine or so 'possibles' I have found - medics listed as such as serving in Ottoman Turkey and of the appropriate rank... E.g., a Hekim Teğmen (= Physician Leutnant) F. Schmücke, serving in a hospital at Beirut - but no real point in going any further...

 

Julian

Edited by trajan

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear Julian,

You have made the good old College Try and found out reams of information, even down to a 'possible' medic, Ltn Schmücke. Well done! 

Now all you have to do is nestle that hanging-down medal into its position next to the similar one, and Voila! you have a super Great War group. 

As far as the irregularities are concerned, the photo of the be-medaled Oberfeldwebel says it all. Despite anything the Reichsgesetzblatt had to say, the participants did what they thought was appropriate: having 'Been There', in contrast to the Paragraphenreiter of that Blatt!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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trajan
8 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

... a 'possible' medic, Ltn Schmücke. ... Now all you have to do is nestle that hanging-down medal into its position next to the similar one, and Voila! you have a super Great War group. As far as the irregularities are concerned, the photo of the be-medaled Oberfeldwebel says it all. Despite anything the Reichsgesetzblatt had to say, the participants did what they thought was appropriate: having 'Been There', in contrast to the Paragraphenreiter of that Blatt!

 

Dear Kim,

 

Thanks for the warming response! Schmücker (my mistake there!) is unfortunately just one of several possibles but the only one of Leutnant rank... Including Oberleutnant's and those ranked as Asteğmen, which seems to be the Ottoman equivalent of Offizieraspirant, and excluding navy bods, then I have as a minimum (assuming the Turkish list is incomplete):

 

Hekim Üsteğmen (Oberleutnant) Dr. Karl Essig

Hekim Üsteğmen (Oberleutnant) Dr. Bruno Klein

Hekim Üsteğmen (Oberleutnant) Dr. Ernst Metge

Hekim Üsteğmen (Oberleutnant) Dr. Waldemar Teigeler

Hekim Üsteğmen (Oberleutnant) Dr. Gotthard Zacharias-Langhans

Hekim Teğmen (Leutnant) F. Schmücker

Hekim Asteğmen (Offizieraspirant) Dr. Hiltmann

Hekim Asteğmen (Offizieraspirant) Dr. Robert Koch,

Hekim Asteğmen (Offizieraspirant) Dr. Friedrich Rehm

 

Impossible to go any further without checking individual records to see which of these were awarded the Prussian VdK and/or the Ludwig one, which remains an anomaly...

 

Now, I am tempted to replace that zinc 3rd Class with a silver 2nd Class - that age-old quandry archaeologists and others face, whether to 'restore' something to its original appearance, or leave as is showing its later alterations... I will resist!

 

That aside, yes, handy to have that Oberleutnant happily disregarding the regulations! An "exception that proves the rule" - and there are other examples I have seen, but men post-military service

 

Best,

 

Julian

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