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ardyer

White cap/ cover (Officer)

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ardyer

Please could I have some help with the significance of the white  cap or cover on this photograph http://www.herefordshirehistory.org.uk/archive/bustin-image-collection/military-portraits/166539

I am volunteering on a project to digitise a collection of WW1 military photographs taken by a local photographer and held by Herefordshire Archives and the more accurate my description the better. There is another white cap in the collection but that one  clearly has a Staffordshire Knot for a cap badge.

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Steven Broomfield

I wonder if he's a cavalry or yeomanry officer. The cap and the stripes on the trousers tend to suggest that.

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thetrenchrat22

Reminds of Royal Marines headdress 

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, ardyer said:

Please could I have some help with the significance of the white  cap or cover on this photograph http://www.herefordshirehistory.org.uk/archive/bustin-image-collection/military-portraits/166539

I am volunteering on a project to digitise a collection of WW1 military photographs taken by a local photographer and held by Herefordshire Archives and the more accurate my description the better. There is another white cap in the collection but that one  clearly has a Staffordshire Knot for a cap badge.

 

First authorised with the dress changes of 1902 as optional summer wear for ALL regiments, it is most frequently seen with frock coats introduced in the same year, or blue patrols (as here) of optional 'type B' (type A retaining the traditional, upright, or 'Prussian' collar without shirt and tie). It was then added to DRs in 1904. Each regiment had to choose which option of blue patrols it preferred.

 

Household (Foot and Horse Guards) officers only, retained the previous pattern frock coat, as they have done to this day. Only regimental band masters (of all arms) and General Officers still wear the 1902 pattern.

 

Of the white cap covers today - nary a sign - into the dustbin of history went they, except for the Royal Marines, who continued their use and after WW2 (1960s) made them permanent via a plasticised, fixed top, and who had also retained the white shirt and black tie combination as a suitable differential from the Army.

 

There is a thread about this, here:  http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10330&hilit=White%26gt%3Bcap%26gt%3Bcover

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Steven Broomfield

You learn something new pretty well every day!

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FROGSMILE
23 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

You learn something new pretty well every day!

 

It was relatively short lived, Steven.  The white cap cover and 02 patt frock coat are frequently seen in barracks settings between the Boer War and WW1, but the optional, open collared blue patrols, never really took off with the infantry, probably because of the well known conservative tendencies.

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MBrockway

An example of Type A being worn here by 1/KRRC in Summer 1914 just before the outbreak of the war ...

5948552d0894c_1KRRC-Officersgroup1914KRRCChronicle1914compressed.jpg.108e6e42fbe0a25efe9f75bcfa31007b.jpg

Sorry about the graininess - my scanner has picked up some sort of interference pattern with the dots of the printed picture.

 

Mark

 

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
On 19/06/2017 at 23:51, MBrockway said:

An example of Type A being worn here by 1/KRRC in Summer 1914 just before the outbreak of the war ...

sorry about the graininess - my scanner has picked up some sort of interference pattern with the dots of the printed picture.

 

Mark

 

 

That's a very good image Mark and shows the use of the cap cover well, thanks for posting it.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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MBrockway

I've often wondered if this is a white cap cover ...

kitchener_2634167b.jpg

 

Any idea Frogsmile?

 

Mark

 

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, MBrockway said:

I've often wondered if this is a white cap cover ...

 

Any idea Frogsmile?

 

Mark

 

 

Yes, it definitely is.  If you seek out images of pre-WW1 general officers in frock coats, or blue patrols, you will often see white cap covers.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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MBrockway

Cheers - another query ticked off!

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MBrockway said:

Cheers - another query ticked off!

 

This is Major General H Lukin in 02 frock coat and white cap cover.

800px-Henry_Lukin00.jpg

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Steven Broomfield

I'll try and remember to look this evening, but I'm pretty sure that one of my cavalry regimental histories (1th Hussars?) has a photo of the officers of the regiment in 1914, thus attired.

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MBrockway

My picture of 1/KRRC came from the 1914 KRRC Chronicle.  The corresponding photo of the officers of 2/KRRC in same has them all in khaki SD (with one in mufti and sporting a nifty boater!).

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ardyer
On ‎19‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 17:42, FROGSMILE said:

 

First authorised with the dress changes of 1902 as optional summer wear for ALL regiments, it is most frequently seen with frock coats introduced in the same year, or blue patrols (as here) of optional 'type B' (type A retaining the traditional, upright, or 'Prussian' collar without shirt and tie). It was then added to DRs in 1904. Each regiment had to choose which option of blue patrols it preferred.

 

Household (Foot and Horse Guards) officers only, retained the previous pattern frock coat, as they have done to this day. Only regimental band masters (of all arms) and General Officers still wear the 1902 pattern.

 

Of the white cap covers today - nary a sign - into the dustbin of history went they, except for the Royal Marines, who continued their use and after WW2 (1960s) made them permanent via a plasticised, fixed top, and who had also retained the white shirt and black tie combination as a suitable differential from the Army.

 

There is a thread about this, here:  http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10330&hilit=White%26gt%3Bcap%26gt%3Bcover

FROGSMILE

Thank you for this full and informative reply. I was just relieved that my question was not an obvious one and got several forum members scratching their heads. Thank you also for the thread/ link to a different forum. Quite a few of the plates I have come across on this projecs date back to the 1860s, although they tend to be long shots, groups etc and having got a bit of an understanding of WW1 uniforms I am suddenly confronted with kepis or shakos and an amazing amount of knobbly braid..

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daggers

The history of 4th West Lancs Howitzer Brigade RFA.,TF includes two photographs of groups of officers wearing white-topped caps, one  in 1908, the other in 1910.  Both were taken at camp,  The uniforms were mixed in 1910, with both mess dress and patrols on view.  The group shown for 1914 is strictly khaki.

D

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ardyer

FROGSMILE

Interesting picture as you can see quite clearly that it is a cover

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Jerry B
On 2017-6-19 at 17:42, FROGSMILE said:

 

First authorised with the dress changes of 1902 as optional summer wear for ALL regiments, it is most frequently seen with frock coats introduced in the same year, or blue patrols (as here) of optional 'type B' (type A retaining the traditional, upright, or 'Prussian' collar without shirt and tie). It was then added to DRs in 1904. Each regiment had to choose which option of blue patrols it preferred.

 

Household (Foot and Horse Guards) officers only, retained the previous pattern frock coat, as they have done to this day. Only regimental band masters (of all arms) and General Officers still wear the 1902 pattern.

 

Of the white cap covers today - nary a sign - into the dustbin of history went they, except for the Royal Marines, who continued their use and after WW2 (1960s) made them permanent via a plasticised, fixed top, and who had also retained the white shirt and black tie combination as a suitable differential from the Army.

 

There is a thread about this, here:  http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10330&hilit=White%26gt%3Bcap%26gt%3Bcover

 

 

Do you know how these relate to the khaki cap covers from the same period and worn up to and perhaps into the great war?

 

 

3.jpg

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)

I think that the design was exactly the same, Jerry, with the white used for Summer, in barracks wear, and the drab (as it was then called) in the field.  After drab SD was introduced in 1902, there became less need for the drab cover, providing that the officer concerned purchased both, a coloured and a drab cap.  Most officers did that, but many general officers at first did not, as it was felt necessary for the bullion wire decorated peak to be seen.  A few years into WW1 largely put paid to that and most generals accepted the drab cap with just a general's cap badge either, in OSD, or bullion wire.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, ardyer said:

FROGSMILE

Interesting picture as you can see quite clearly that it is a cover

 

Yes, he (more likely his servant/batman) did not fix the cover in place very well.  I will post a few more examples in succeeding days.  I omitted to mention that, alone among ORs, the unit bands also wore the white cap cover and, in some cases continued doing so for a few years between the wars, albeit only in hot weather stations.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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FROGSMILE
18 hours ago, ardyer said:

FROGSMILE

Thank you for this full and informative reply. I was just relieved that my question was not an obvious one and got several forum members scratching their heads. Thank you also for the thread/ link to a different forum. Quite a few of the plates I have come across on this projecs date back to the 1860s, although they tend to be long shots, groups etc and having got a bit of an understanding of WW1 uniforms I am suddenly confronted with kepis or shakos and an amazing amount of knobbly braid..

 

I will be happy to assist you in interpreting, or identifying any old military photos showing British uniform.

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Jerry B
2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think that the design was exactly the same, Jerry, with the white used for Summer, in barracks wear, and the drab (as it was then called) in the field.  After drab SD was introduced in 1902, there became less need for the drab cover, providing that the officer concerned purchased both, a coloured and a drab cap.  Most officers did that, but many general officers at first did not, as it was felt necessary for the bullion wire decorated peak to be seen.  A few years into WW1 largely put paid to that and most generals accepted the drab cap with just a general's cap badge either, in OSD, or bullion wire.

 

 

Thank you very much sir.  Pretty much as I though but always good to get confirmation.

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FROGSMILE

Here is another example.  Note how the officer's frock coat is different from a General Officers only by its plain shoulder strap with GM badge of rank.

rir1908.jpg

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303man

Current Royal Artillery SMIG's wear a white cap cover so it has not died out completely.

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, 303man said:

Current Royal Artillery SMIG's wear a white cap cover so it has not died out completely.

 

Different purpose, and less tailored, but if you look at the VWF link I posted earlier in the thread you will see it is well covered there.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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