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Sgt Stripes

17th Manchester Regiment

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Sgt Stripes

Hello There. I was looking on Forces war records looking for information on 9047 Sgt T R Marsden 17th Manchester Regiment who was sadly KIA. I was greatly surprised to see that it states that there is a photograph on him on page 55 in the book Manchester city battalion 1914-16 (sergeant E company, platoon no XX) . I was wondering if a member had this book and could possibly post me a copy of it. Many thanks   

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John_Hartley

FWIW, his permanent posting was to 16 Platoon, D Company.

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Sgt Stripes

Many thanks John.

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Phil Wood

FindMyPast also has this book in its databases. T R Marsden is linked to 3 group photos - but I cannot see a key to say which is Marsden. Would you be able to pick him out of a platoon photo?

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John_Hartley

I don't have my City battalions book to hand but I think it sounds possible to ID him. From the info in the OP, we know there's a photo of him with a E Coy platoon. The notes i had on him for my history of the Battalion noting him with a D Coy Platoon means there should also be a photo of him with that platoon. Look for the sergeant who is in both photos and it's gotta be him (or, easier, if there 's only one sergeant present on a photo, of course).

 

 

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8055Bell

If you join Manchesters Forum you can access the Platoon photos.  Somebody may know more about Thomas Marsden too.

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8055Bell

John has a good point.  I think he's sat to the right of the Platoon Commander in both pics.  Generally that's where I've seen other Platoon Sergeants.

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Phil Wood

Two of the photos on FMP are not labelled in any way, they just come up as platoon photos - no names, no page numbers, no platoon ID.  One has a Sgt Maj of some sort on the officer's right, can't see the stripes in the second but it could well be the same chap - based on the rank I assumed this wasn't Marsden, just the CSM getting into all the platoon photos. I am often wrong! The third photo is around 70 sergeants in a group with 3 officers (looks like a full colonel, a major and a capt)- regimental colonel with all the sgts at a training camp or somesuch?

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RammyLad1

I have a photo of him sent to me by one of his descendants. I'm away from my computer at the moment and will have a look for it later. From memory he was killed on 1st July 1916. His family were living in Ramsbottom at the time of his death hence my interest in him. 

 

Duncan

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8055Bell

Courtesy Janet Toy - Gt granddaughter on Facebook 

IMG_3691.JPG

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Sgt Stripes

Many thanks for all your help with this. I am sure somewhere in the loft I have a photograph of a memorial window in a church with his name on it.    

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RammyLad1

This is the memorial window at St. Andrew's Church, Ramsbottom, with his name on it.

StAndrewsMem1.jpg

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RammyLad1

Thomas Richard Marsden obituary from the Ramsbottom Observer 4th August 1916.

T.R. Marsden.JPG

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8055Bell

Wonderful memorial. Thanks for posting. Have you worked out the roll of honour?

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RammyLad1

Not entirely yet. I'm researching all the men from the Ramsbottom district who fell, (over 400) and am up to October 1917. Twenty two men died that month, the majority on 9/10 October, at Poelcapelle. 

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8055Bell

Any more 17th Bttn men?

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RammyLad1

Only one. Pte, 61179, Robert Youd. K. I. A., 22nd March 1918. Age 19. Haven't researched him yet but will do when I get into 1918. 

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Sgt Stripes

Hi RammyLad1. Sorry to ask but have you found the photograph Of Sgt Marsden .

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Phil Wood

The FindMyPast version of the City Battalions book is impressively useless -  I tried my local 17th Bn man - Alfred George Edwards - and found platoon photos for a few A or G Edwards - with no key to these and no other photo of Alfred to compare them with they remain anonymous groups of soldiers.

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John_Hartley

Phil

 

It is not just the FMP version that has no key - neither does the original publication. Of course, the people buying the original publication would have known what their loved one looked like, so no need for a key, excepting the single list of names that appear with each photo.

 

Some years back, I and others attempted to see if there was any logic to the order in which men were listed. We hoped that there might have been a case of a name being taken and a man then put in line, next to the man preceeding him in the name giving queue. We took examples where we could positively identify, say, two men and count the numbers in the photo in between them but it all proved to be random.

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RammyLad1

Hi Sgt Stripes, the photo is the same as the one in this thread. Are you related to this man? 

 

Duncan 

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Phil Wood
11 hours ago, John_Hartley said:

Phil

 

It is not just the FMP version that has no key - neither does the original publication. Of course, the people buying the original publication would have known what their loved one looked like, so no need for a key, excepting the single list of names that appear with each photo.

 

Some years back, I and others attempted to see if there was any logic to the order in which men were listed. We hoped that there might have been a case of a name being taken and a man then put in line, next to the man preceeding him in the name giving queue. We took examples where we could positively identify, say, two men and count the numbers in the photo in between them but it all proved to be random.

 

Thanks John

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John_Hartley

FWIW, the city battalions book is available on CD from the Manchester & Lancashire Family History Society. And the big benefit here is that's fully indexed, including all the names in employer "adverts" listing their staff who had enlisted into the army.

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Sgt Stripes
4 hours ago, RammyLad1 said:

Hi Sgt Stripes, the photo is the same as the one in this thread. Are you related to this man? 

 

Duncan 

Hi. Not related, just interested in the Somme however I do have his Victory medal. 

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8055Bell

Hi John,

 

Hope you are well.

 

My notes say 19 year old 31257 Austin Gibbons (KIA 14/3/1916) joined 17th Bttn on 2nd January, having originally enlisted in 18th Bttn.  He and 18 year old 26297 John Chambers (KIA 1/7/1916) are 2 examples of men lost by the opening of the Battle of the Somme, who weren't entitled to Stars. I can see that there may not have been large drafts coming in during 1916, but weren't these men replacements, sent over from 25th TR Bttn?  I may be missing something.

 

Tim

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