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tanks3

Munitionettes Bonnet

25 posts in this topic

ID: 1   Posted (edited)

I have in my collection one of the typical bonnets as used by Women Munitionettes during WW1.  It is WD and Broad Arrow marked with maker and date stamp for 1918.  Sadly I am not able to read the whole of the makers name just the initials of the firm - J.E.  Is there any expert on the forum who can tell me who the maker may have been and give me a bit of background information on the firm?

 

Thanks

 

Tanks3

Edited by tanks3

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Some warning bells ringing here at the moment - do you have a picture of the cap/markings?

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ID: 3   Posted (edited)

Andrew

 

Here is a photo of the bonnet.  I can't get a good picture of the stamp inside.  Basically it is an oval shaped stamp.  At the top is the makers name J E .......?  followed underneath by WD, underneath the crows foot and under that the date 1918  

 

Tanks3

Hat1.jpg

Edited by tanks3

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It looks like a chefs hat I used to use in my younger days.

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It's the markings in particular that will confirm one thing or the other. I can't really comment further - even a bad shot would be helpful.

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ID: 6   Posted (edited)

What a sceptical lot you are. Surely this is typically the type of bonnet that would have been worn. As someone whose glass is normally half empty it is half full on this one. All it needs is a bit more eyeballing of the markings.

Edited by Jim Strawbridge

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2 hours ago, Jim Strawbridge said:

What a sceptical lot you are. Surely this is typically the type of bonnet that would have been worn. As someone whose glass is normally half empty it is half full on this one. All it needs is a bit more eyeballing of the markings.

 

Then I'll be blunt - there is a well known faker on Ebay who in the past has offered for sale what started out life as original unmarked later production examples of this type of cap, but they have applied fake markings with their stamping set to try and add value. Very easy to spot these fake markings when you see them being offered  by the seller concerned, but less so when they have entered the system and maybe passed through a few different peoples hands. If you know an item has already (and convincingly) been faked, it is not scepticism but pure common sense to be wary of the originality of any other items that appear...

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20 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

Then I'll be blunt - there is a well known faker on Ebay who in the past has offered for sale what started out life as original unmarked later production examples of this type of cap, but they have applied fake markings with their stamping set to try and add value. Very easy to spot these fake markings when you see them being offered  by the seller concerned, but less so when they have entered the system and maybe passed through a few different peoples hands. If you know an item has already (and convincingly) been faked, it is not scepticism but pure common sense to be wary of the originality of any other items that appear...

 

Accepted. If you have seen false ones (as it were) then I can understand scepticism.

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Gents

 

Just caught up with this again having been away for a few days.  I will try and get a photo of the marks.  This may be a while though as the bonnet is with a friend at the moment who is using it in a display.  

 

Thanks

 

Tanks3

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On 7/18/2017 at 16:46, Andrew Upton said:

Some warning bells ringing here at the moment - do you have a picture of the cap/markings?

 

My very first thoughts too, and for exactly the same reasons you gave later.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

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So chaps I managed to get this photo over the weekend.  Any further thoughts?

 

Tanks3

WP_20170730_13_59_39_Pro.jpg

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Put it this way, I really don't like those markings... where did you acquire it from if you don't mind me asking?

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It came from the Netherlands, if that is any help

 

Tanks3

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I have no problem with the cap, yet agree with Andrew and I think the markings are completely bogus. (JE & Co is, I think you'll find, the complete 'maker').

 

The forum rules prevent going into detail, yet the date, arrow and WD style are dead giveaways.

 

As you bought it 'downstream' of where I think this originated, one perhaps can't be too hard on the vendor and there's no comeback on the owner of the John Bull printing kit.

 

At best, it's likely a period item which has suffered a clumsy attempt at improvement.

 

One doesn't like to wash items because of the resulting loss of patina etc, yet I'd be tempted to try to take the mark out and enjoy the bonnet for what it is.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

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Thanks GT.  Grateful for your input

 

Tanks3

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On 8/3/2017 at 16:13, Grovetown said:

... The forum rules prevent going into detail, yet the date, arrow and WD style are dead giveaways. ... 

 

 

I can understand your caution but is it not possible to describe where the 'giveaways' are - without giving too much details of course, we don't want to help the 'John Bull' printing set enthusiasts!

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20 hours ago, trajan said:

I can understand your caution but is it not possible to describe where the 'giveaways' are - without giving too much details of course, we don't want to help the 'John Bull' printing set enthusiasts!

 

The markings have all the hallmarks of a certain person - the WD and arrow are practically unique to them.

 

The forum is strict about the risk of impugning people - not least as some commentators can't help themselves.

 

So, legally and forum speaking, we can discuss the object, while having to fight shy of discussing the source.

 

In this case, it's not easy to do the former without leading to the latter.

 

In that event, the thread would be deleted, at least, when it serves a better purpose for people being able to recognise the type/ style if (when) they surface again on other items.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

 

 

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Thanks - take your point. But main thing is that many more now aware of problems with that particular stamping.

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GT

 

Can you post a picture of what these markings should look like?  At least one can then see what to look for and what not to look for if you get my drift

 

Tanks3

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Probably best not to or potential fakers who click in here would know what to do! Main point surely is that we know the one under discussion is not the recognised official style for this marking. 

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4 hours ago, tanks3 said:

Can you post a picture of what these markings should look like?  At least one can then see what to look for and what not to look for if you get my drift

 

First, I do wonder like a poster above if an item such as this would be W^D marked at all.

 

Second, it does vary a bit - especially pre-war to in-the-war - yet usually you would expect to see a number (the inspector) over the W^D over a letter. Headgear is typically stamped with a P (for the RACD depot at Pimlico), while waterproof items have an O. The letters signify depot location - L=Leeds, D=Dublin, M=Marylebone and so on.

 

1 hour ago, trajan said:

Probably best not to or potential fakers who click in here would know what to do!

 

Most of them are not even close - they are relying on most buyers' unfamiliarity with original stampings.

 

The image is a typical headgear marking - this from the Salonika-issue neck flap that accompanied the Brodie cover.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

 

 

tnf #3.JPG

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Grateful to you for that GT.  Thank you

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On ‎08‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 20:38, Grovetown said:

Most of them are not even close - they are relying on most buyers' unfamiliarity with original stampings.

I came across a similar issue with a British Army field compass which was a modern fake made apparently in the sub-continent.

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ID: 24   Posted (edited)

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 14:13, Grovetown said:

I have no problem with the cap, yet agree with Andrew and I think the markings are completely bogus. (JE & Co is, I think you'll find, the complete 'maker').

 

The forum rules prevent going into detail, yet the date, arrow and WD style are dead giveaways.

 

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 10:44, Grovetown said:

The markings have all the hallmarks of a certain person - the WD and arrow are practically unique to them.

 

Worth noting that on a certain well known auction site at present, the certain person has a WW2 raincape which now sports an identical mark to that shown in post 11. Caveat Emptor!

 

Edited by Andrew Upton

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It didn't take too long for another to surface.

 

Forum rules prevent further detail, yet the item on which this features couldn't be further from a munitionettes bonnet, and was certainly not made in 1918.

 

 

 

 

Cape 18-08-17 - Copy.jpg

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