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clivefarmer

I am researching Andrew Baird Lawrie dob 1896 1/4 KOSB #4391 and 200255 .I have posted about him before but this is a new topic . His battalion is variously called 1/4 (Territorials ) KOSB or 1/4 (Volunteers) KOSB or just 1/4 KOSB  . I had thought that the prefix "1" was applied to regular battalions and that the prefix "2" was applied to territorial units to indicate a lower level of training , experience or equipment .

As to Lawrie he was awarded the Territorial Force Efficiency Medal (dark green ribbon with thin yellow stripes at the edges .) This required ten years service so even allowing for his war service counting double he would have needed at least two years Territorial service . He could not have completed this before late 1914 as his DOB was 1896 . So could he have rejoined the Territorials after his war service ? Various newspaper reports say he has served a "number of years in the Territorials and his rank is variously described as CSM or Lance Sgt (his army rank was pte or  lance Cpl .I can find no records of territorial service and his army service record cannot be traced . If anyone could help me understand this confusing picture I would be grateful 

 

Clive Farmer

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tullybrone

Hi,

 

Have you you had a look at KOSB on Long Long Trail?

 

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-own-scottish-borderers/

 

4th KOSB likely emerged from pre 1908 Volunteer & Militia Battalions. In Aug 1914 title would be 4th KOSB (T F) but when a Reserve Battalion was created in Sept 1914 - see Long Long Trail - the Battalions were designated 1/4 and 2/4.

 

IIRC Service in pre 1908 Volunteer & Militia counted towards TFEM. Have you got a date for his award of TFEM?

 

If he joined the Territorial Army (T A) when it was created in 1921 then his service papers for that period of service at least may still be held by MOD.

 

Steve Y

Edited by tullybrone

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clivefarmer

Thanks.  Long Long Trail is helpful . His MIC for TFEM states "Date of Army Order May 1921 " which I take to be the date of the award . He was too young to have any service pre 1908 his dob was 1896 . He may have joined  the TA in 1921 but it seems unlikely .If he was awarded the TFEM in 1921 his  qualifying service must have been before or up to 1921 not after it .

Clive

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tullybrone

Hi,

 

As it wasn't unknown for youths to enlist under age in peacetime a possible hypothetical scenario is he enlisted under age sometime in 1911/12 and accumulated between 24 and 36 months embodied service before August 1914. Supposing he served from the outbreak of the war until disembodied in Feb 1919 he would have a maximum of 54 months service - doubled to 108.

 

If his initial 4 years enlistment - plus one year - expired before the introduction of the MSA 1916 he could have enlisted for an additional 4 years TF service towards the end of 1915/early 1916 rather than take a discharge time expired. If that option wasn't available he would have remained in Service under MSA.

 

If it was early 1916 that first re enlistment would've expired in early 1920 - giving him an additional 12 months post war TF service. If he re enlisted in TF for a second time in 1920 - before it was reconstituted as Territorial Army - he may have had 24 months post war TF service(caveat - I'm not sure whether there was any active TF post war as I'm aware of 90 days service Defence Force Battalions being formed to address General Strike issues in  early 1921).

 

144 months (12 years) service required for TFEM

 

Max 36 months service pre war

54 months embodied service = 108

Max 24 months service post war

 

Total 168 months

 

Just a thought. Better informed members may shoot me down!

 

Steve Y

 

 

Edited by tullybrone

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kenf48
21 hours ago, clivefarmer said:

I am researching Andrew Baird Lawrie dob 1896 1/4 KOSB #4391 and 200255 .I have posted about him before but this is a new topic . His battalion is variously called 1/4 (Territorials ) KOSB or 1/4 (Volunteers) KOSB or just 1/4 KOSB  . I had thought that the prefix "1" was applied to regular battalions and that the prefix "2" was applied to territorial units to indicate a lower level of training , experience or equipment .

 

 

As you have looked at the LLT I assume you have now clarified the meaning of 1/4:2/4 etc, if not then see LLT 

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/the-territorial-force/

 

Put simply Pte 4391 Lawrie enlisted in the 4th Bn (TF) KOSB towards the end of 1912 (4380 Haig age 19 enlisted 2nd November 1912 - 4396 Smerdon age 17, enlisted 24 December 1912).  Although there were some 'boys' in the TF seventeen was the lower age limit.  They were not always precise and if he declared he was 17 as far as the Army was concerned that was his 'Army age'.  If born 1896 he could have been rising seventeen in December 1912.

There may have been a local recruiting drive as the men who joined on formation of the TF  in 1908 would have reached the end of their initial four year term.  Local newspapers may identify this.

 

As previously mentioned the  4th Battalion became the first line Battalion when the second line was formed as a Reserve Battalion on 31 August 1914 and the Battalions were designated 1/4 and 2/4 respectively.  When renumbered in 1917 he was stil serving in the 4th Bn.  The 14-15 Star Roll states he was 'demobilised' on 5 March 1919, that doesn't necessarily mean his TF service came to an end.

 

Ken 

 

 

Edited by kenf48

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clivefarmer

Thanks for all the info .I now understand the status of the 1/4 KOSB at various periods .

As kenf48 says , he enlisted before the minimum age , did around 2 years TF service , then army service for 4plus years then re-enlisted in the TF after demob . This would give him the 12 years needed for his medal and would account for newspaper reports in the early 1920s saying he had served many years in the TF and had attained a senior non commissioned rank , The post 1919 TF service would also be consistent with his very active community activities - Masons , Royal British Legion , etc 

 

One last question for kenf48  , he quotes from a list mentioning Lawrie and 2 others with specific dates . Could he please quote the source of this - I have been unable to find any info at all about his TF service ,and  even the date he entered the 1/4 KOSB  in late 1914 or early 1915 is not available from his MICS or medal Rolls .

 

Thanks again Clive 

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kenf48
7 hours ago, clivefarmer said:

Thanks for all the info .I now understand the status of the 1/4 KOSB at various periods .

As kenf48 says , he enlisted before the minimum age , did around 2 years TF service , then army service for 4plus years then re-enlisted in the TF after demob . This would give him the 12 years needed for his medal and would account for newspaper reports in the early 1920s saying he had served many years in the TF and had attained a senior non commissioned rank , The post 1919 TF service would also be consistent with his very active community activities - Masons , Royal British Legion , etc 

 

One last question for kenf48  , he quotes from a list mentioning Lawrie and 2 others with specific dates . Could he please quote the source of this - I have been unable to find any info at all about his TF service ,and  even the date he entered the 1/4 KOSB  in late 1914 or early 1915 is not available from his MICS or medal Rolls .

 

Thanks again Clive 

 

I don't believe he reenlisted after 1919, but remained in the TF continuously until it became the TA.  At the end of the war TF soldiers were usually 'disembodied on demobilisation'.  In other words they once again became subject to TF Regulations  as regards their service.

 

I didn't 'quote from a list' but by sampling the surviving service records for the 4th Bn KOSB I found two (badly burned) records, those of Haig and Smerdon, whose numbers bracket Pte Lawrie.  The fact he was awarded the TFEM indicates, as has been shown he must have enlisted in 1912.  The two men cited enlisted at Coldstream which was the home of 'E' Company.

 

Ken

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clivefarmer

Thank you Ken . I hadn't understood that on his demob he would have reverted to TF status by default . Apart from the 1914 - 1919 period he spent his life in Coldtream until around 1927 . As to service records I have only ever searched by name not unit .

Your  information is of great help .

 

Clive

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