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ddycher

Camel Corps School, Abbassia

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Following on from the above thread. I am trying to understand more about the Camel Corps School at Abbassia at the start of the war. Army Lists show it was commanded by Maj. Edward Broadbent. From what I can glean from Stuart and other ref's on the GWF a contingent of Camel Troops was trained and maintained at Abbassia from regular forces garrisons pre-war. Trying to understand if these men were maintained on the roll of the Army of Occupation / Force in Egypt or were seconded to the Egyptian Camel Corps. Can anyone clarify ?

 

Regards

Dave

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ID: 2   Posted (edited)

Mate,

 

From what I gleam for ICC records the Egyptian CC base at Abbassia was handed over to the British in Early 1916 so it could train (White) Camel Corps soldiers.

 

as to Capt Broadbent (I have no details on when he arrived at the ICC depot or what his roll was there?);

 

Broadbent Edward Nicolson  Capt ICC shown Brig Gen visit 5Co at Rafa 12-18 possibly Ex LtCol King's Own Scottish Borderers to Bde Gen Staff
 

Known names of the first officers

 

Brading GR  Capt T/CO CTU ICC Abbassia 1-16 replaced by Maj CL Smith VC 1-16 Ex Worcester Regt DSO
 

MacIndoe J. Douglas  Capt Tos Adjt CTU Abbassia 1-16 to staff officer Smiths Column 8-16 MC - for his work at Romani to Staff Capt HQ/ICC Bde 12-16 to 1-17 to GSO (3) GHQ 1-17 Ex Scots Guards (photo to come)

Barber James 263 2/Lt Adjt CTU Abbassia 1-16 to Capt CTU Ex Wo1 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt (2876)
 

The permanent staff were assembled at Abbassia 1st Jan 1916 under Lt J Barber, the first CO arrived on the 19th Jan (Capt Brading) and he was replaced by Smith VC on the 29th Jan.

 

The first Company (1Co Australian) (3 officers and 116 men) arrived 24th Jan 

 

For what I can read the ECC was moved to another place, but I am not aware of where that was?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited by stevebecker

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Steve

 

Thanks for the quick reply.

 

When war was declared the school was commanded by Edward Broadbent of the KOSB with E.H. Davidson of the 2nd Gordons as his Adjt. Broadbent soon joined Maxwells Staff as

DAA&QMG and when Davidson left for Europe with the 2nd Gordons he was succeeded by G.J. Brownlow of the Rifle Bde. Dont yet know how long Brownlow remained there. Need to go back to the Army Lists. At present I am trying to understand the role of the School up to the forming of the ICC. In particular I am trying to detail the camel contingent in the first Canal garrison.

 

Pre-war I believe it was normal practice for white troops to be detached from each of the regular battalions (although todate only have ref;s for the Gordons and the Suffolks; nothing yet from the Northants, Worcesters or Devons) for training as Camel Troops at the School. Dont know if these troops were held together as a unit or as detachments of their original Bn's. I believe the later as I have a couple of ref's where men remained in Egypt when their battalions shipped out to Europe.

 

Finding it difficult to tie these white troops and ECC men together but believe when war was declared the Army of Occupation held a Cavalry Garrison (3rd Dragoons) and a Camel Troop School and TBD contingent (how strong I dont know) at Abbassia. This may, or may not have been the ECC.

 

Do you have these white troops subsequently moving to the ICC ? Or thoughts on the above ?

 

Regards

Dave

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Dave,

 

All ICC records only start Jan 1916, the mention of the former ECC training base is all that's given around Abbassia.

 

No officers are mentioned pre the forming of the ICC other then James Barber. but one soldier is mentioned;

 

Bannister orderly room Sgt at Abbassia deport (not identified)

 

As you know the Egyptian CC companies were formed and trained as single units and sent to areas for operations, the same thing happened to the new White ICC units when they arrived.

 

I am unsure of how many ECC companies were formed, as they and the Egyptian Coast Guard became short of animals (camels) when the White ICC units began to form.

 

Abbassia seams like Zeitoun, as I have the same problems finding what units made up these Training areas?

 

Sorry

 

S.B
 

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ID: 5   Posted (edited)

Steve

 

Many thanks for this.

 

From what I can gather the Camel Corps School at Polygon Barracks, Abbassia was opened as early as 1908 under Richard Dawson of the Coldstream Guards. There seems to have only ever been 2x Commandants; Dawson and Edward Broadbent of the KOSB referred to above. There were three Adjt's Walter Middleton (KSLI), Guy Brownlow and Edward Davidson. I have not worked out James Barbers role in all this post his commissioning in March 1915. Have no sense of the size of staff but I know it was absorbed into the ICC in January 1916.

 

Re the size of the contingent under training I know that half Coy's of the Army of Occupation Bn's appear to have rotated through it for camel training from 1908 thru 1914. This continued when the 42nd Div. relieved the Regular Army and was still happening when the Garrison Bn's relieved the TF for service in Gallipoli. I believe it continued until the forming of the Imperial Camel Corps.

 

What I am really struggling with is making the connection between the school, the men it trained and the Egyptian Camel Corps. I'm not sure there was one. The school reported to Byng (later Maxwell) as part of the Army of Occupation not to Wingate. Wingate had his own in Khartoum where he trained the Sudanese elements. Formal training of the ECC was late coming up and was not long established by the start of the war. I think the School and its detachments from the Garrison Bn's was the pre-cursor to the ICC and was absorbed by it in its entirity on its establishment. Perhaps even the nucleas of the Corps but I'm out of my depth here and I would defer to you on that.

 

At the start of the war the ECC had 5 Coy's in place. 2x at El Obeid, 2x at Bara and 1x at Wad Madari. Spent some time a few years ago digging into this as part of my research into Hubert Huddleston. Let me know if you want more and I'll PM you. Ref's to Egyptian Camel Corps being sent to the Canal at the end of August 1914, which started this thread,  appear to refer to the Egyptian Coastguard Camel Corps rather than the ECC but I am still trying to understand that better. We have discussed these men before on GWF re Chope and the actions of 20th November 1914. Going to look at that again over the weekend and will post if I get a stronger link.

 

If you could shed a bit more light on the forming of the ICC at Abbassia I would appreciate it.

 

Regards

Dave

Edited by ddycher

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ID: 6   Posted (edited)

Steve

 

Stumbled across this on arrse.co.uk

 

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/camel-corps.194173/

 

It shows the 1st Suffolk detachment in Cairo in 1912. It also states they were trained in the Sudan which has me doublechecking. 

 

Regards

Dave

Edited by ddycher

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ID: 7   Posted (edited)

Dave,

 

Yes the Egyptian Coast guard Camel Corps is one of those strange ones where there is little details.

 

Accounts all place ECGCC along the Sinai coast (around the bitter Lakes) during 1915 & 1916 during the Turkish advances, and they appear also along the western coast during the Senussi problem in 1915-16.

 

But other wise they disappear or are not mentioned later in the war?

 

As to James Barber I show he came from the 1st Garrision Bn RWR of whom a number were drawn to the Camel Corps units;

 

Belgrave Charles Dalrymple  2/Lt CTC Ex 2/Lt 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt and Army Service Corps post war worked in Frontier District Admin in Egypt and worked for the Ruling family in Bahrain born 1894 died 1969
Bridgwater John Thomas 13805 Sgt No1 CTC depot to ECo/CTC 5-17 to CQMS to No2 CTC depot 11-17 disch 2-19 Ex Worcester Regt (13102) to 1 Gar Bn Warwick Regt to Army Service Corps (T/41684)
Curtis Rowland T/41688 Cpl No1 CTC depot 5-17 att commission to HCo/CTC 6-17 to Sgt 7-17 Ex Gloucester Regt (7595) to 1 Gar Bn Warwick Regt (13516)
Nolan P 60406 Pte No1 CTC depot att commission 6-17 Ex 1 Garr Bn Royal Warwick Regt or Kings Liverpool Regt
Robinson Tom 32261 Sgt No1 CTC depot att commission 6-17 to LCo/CTC 6-17 Ex Warwick Yeo (2717) to Army Service Corps (T/440554) to 1 Garr Bn Royal Warwick Regt
 

Thorogood Frederick John 13316 Pte att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt to 1/4 Cheshire Regt (62979) 
Painter Reginald Walter Richard  13578 Pte att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1Bn Gloucester Regt (9814) WIA 4-11-14 F&B to 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt (13578) to Cheshire Regt (62978)
Firth George 51083 Pte 5Co? ICC Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt (1384) and Hussars
Jones Arthur H 51087 Pte 5Co possibly ICC? Ex (1 Gar Bn)? Royal Warwick Regt (4114) & Hussars
Rowland Frederick 51089 Pte 5Co? ICC Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt (14737) and hussars
Jenkins Robert S 51091 Pte 5Co? ICC shown 5Co FGCM 2-3-18 with L/Cpl Young & Pte's Dean and Brown sentenced 2 years HL Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt (63030) and Hussars
Goldingay George 51092 Pte 5Co Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt (14750) and Hussars
Clark James E 51093 Pte 5Co Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt and Cheshire Regt (14111) to Suffolk Regt (70695)
Young Percy H. 51099 Pte possibly 5Co? ICC shown L/Cpl shown 5Co FGCM 2-3-18 with Pte's Jenkins Dean and Brown rtn 6Co 9-18 Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt (13603) and Hussars
Dunton Alfred 51100 Pte 5Co? possibly ICC? Ex Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry & Ex (1 Gar Bn)? Royal Warwick Regt (21352) & Hussars (23736)
Donnelly Arthur C. 51248 Pte 5Co? ICC? Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt (13672) and Hussars
Lyford William J. 51249 Pte 5Co? ICC? Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt (14228) and Hussars
Sherwen Andrew 51321 Pte 5Co? ICC? Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt (13622) and Hussars
Walsh Charles 51322 Pte 5Co? ICC? Ex Worcester Regt (10679) and 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt (13799) and Hussars

Cheers

S.B

Edited by stevebecker

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Steve

 

Proving a fascinating side line. Spent the day looking into Schools and the the people deeper. 

 

Re. the Schools themselves.

 

Slowly becoming clearer that there was a significant British Camel Corps in place before the establishment of the ICC. This in addition to the Egyptian Camel Corps and the Somaliland Camel Corps. Have found detachments (100 man strong) being maintained at both the Camel Corps School in Cairo and the Military School in Khartoum.

 

Re the people :

 

James Barber was appointed Sgt.Maj to the School in April 1910. His appointment to Adjt of first the school and then the ICC is documented in numerous ref's. Ended the war as a Capt. working for the Egyptian Frontiers Administration. Interesting character; he stayed with the Camel Corps through out. I had wrongly assumed that the Camel Corps were wound up on the disbanding of the ICC. Looking into Barber and others (de Lancy Forth for example) got me reading up on the later Camel Corps and Light Car Patrols of the EFA. Never heard of it before.

 

I'm intrigued by what George Breading was doing in Cairo in December 1915 / January 1916. So far I can find not any tie to the School. Best I can come up with is he was appointed there on 15th December 1915 and was there when the School was absorbed.  Leaving later in January to go back to the Somaliland Camel Corps. Typically his biographies, and his gazette, show him rejoining the SCC again in January 1916 but Army Lists show him as a Wing Commander with the SCC at the start of the war. Still looking into this.

 

Not got to MacIndoe yet. Will post when I do.

 

Like I said fascinating stuff.

 

Dave

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Steve

 

James Barbers entries in the Army Lists show him moving to Egyptian Government employ on 1st August 1916. This dates to Wingates forming of the FDA. Charles Belgrave's book "Siwa" has a lttle more on this. Did a number of ICC men leave the Corps for the FDA at this point or is Barbers case unusual ?

 

His MIC places him at the Camel Depot at Khanka at the end of the war. Have not seen anything else of Khanka yet.

 

Regards

Dave

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Mate,

 

James Barber as Capt is last shown on ICC records (ICC Training depot) when he is sent on an inspection tour to Matruh 1st Aug 1918, after that he disappears form the records?

 

I'll have to double check but the only Camel Depots I have are two for the CTC and one ICC but unsure what its use was?

 

No 1 CTC depot at Ein el Shems (Flower Stanley Smyth  Maj OC No1 CTC depot 1915 to 4-17 Ex Northumberland Fusiliers, Buckland Lionel  T/Maj Tos OC No1 CTC depot 4-17 to DI CTC DMC HQ 8-17 MID Ex T/Lt RN and Royal Army Service Corps rtn Army Service Corps, and Lucas W. R.  Lt shown OC LCo/CTC att Div CTC officer Anzac MD 9-16 to Capt CO No1 CTC depot 5-17 (from Maj Buckland) to Duty inspector of CTC 20th Corps 9-17 to 7 Mtd Bde to No2 CTC depot 10-17 Ex Army Service Corps
 

No 2 CTC depot at Kantara West (Peel Willoughby Ewart  Lt to T/Capt No2 CTC depot to Maj Inspector CO No2 CTC depot 4-17 recom DSO - for his command of depot Ex Army Service Corps)
 

 

No 1 base depot Kantara - mentioned in ICC documents during 1918

 

Cheers


S.B

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Steve

 

Thanks.

 

Went back to the Army Lists he was "employed by the Egyptian Government" from 1st August 1916. Still think this ties in to the Frontier Districts Administration Camel Corps in some way. Have not found a decent ref for this yet though.

 

Thanks for the notes on the Camel Depots. Have not found anything on Khanka yet but still looking. Will post if I find something.

 

Regards

Dave

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On 8/13/2017 at 03:08, stevebecker said:

the Egyptian Coast guard Camel Corps is one of those strange ones where there is little details.

Accounts all place ECGCC along the Sinai coast (around the bitter Lakes) during 1915 & 1916 during the Turkish advances, and they appear also along the western coast during the Senussi problem in 1915-16.

But other wise they disappear or are not mentioned later in the war?

 

599695067c548_ECGCCpicfromLoCUSA.jpg.7c5f9ff243838fe4edd80520011762c0.jpg

 

The Egyptian Coastguard have cropped up before on the GWF - see http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/topic/139628-sudanese-deserters/#comment-1398711

for useful comments & links

 

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