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Alan24

12th Hants - What are they wearing?

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Alan24   
Alan24

The photo below is part of a postcard of 12th Btn Hampshire Regt. 

I am interested to know why they appear to be wearing blankets on parade.

Their belts appear to be leather but with a normal 'civilian' type buckle - not the 'S' shape hook.

Pockets on tunics are without pleats - so assume late 1914/early 1915.

Also of note, several of the men have not received their cap badges. 

 

I also assume they are carrying Long Lee Enfields as oppose SMLE.

 

Any insight into their uniforms most welcome.

 

The location is possibly Basingstoke. 

 

Regards

 

Alan. 

 

12th Hants.JPG

Edited by Alan24

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jay dubaya   
jay dubaya

Alan, they are not blankets but their rolled up great coats 

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FROGSMILE   
FROGSMILE

It was a form of full marching order associated with the 03 bandolier equipment that was issued to many TF units not yet equipped to the most modern (08 webbing) standards.  As Jay has said, the greatcoat was worn 'en banderole', as there was no largepack.  They are armed with 'Long Lees' for the same reason.  Basingstoke is probably the mobilisation muster point of the sub-unit concerned.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Steven Broomfield   
Steven Broomfield

I notice several don't have cap badges, and the Colour Sergeant at the front appears to have a few ribbons.

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squirrel   
squirrel

No slings on their rifles either...

 

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Alan24   
Alan24

Thanks Guys.

You've confirmed my assumption that this photo is quite early in the war, perhaps even winter 1914.

I'll post the full pic once I get back to a desktop.

 

Regards

 

Alan.

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Alan24   
Alan24

Here's the full picture.

 

Alan.

12th Hr.JPG

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rolt968   
rolt968

The ORs, including the sergeant on the right, but not the staff sergeant are wering modified/ simplified/ utility SD jackets.

RM

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PhilB   
PhilB

For a platoon, they are well stocked with senior NCOs and officers?

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FROGSMILE   
FROGSMILE
1 hour ago, rolt968 said:

The ORs, including the sergeant on the right, but not the staff sergeant are wering modified/ simplified/ utility SD jackets.

RM

 

He is a colour sergeant rather than a staff sergeant, RM, which suggests a company (albeit incomplete, or understrength), with the company officers lined up at the front, as is correct.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Steven Broomfield   
Steven Broomfield
10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

He is a colour sergeant rather than a staff sergeant,

 

As noted in Post 4 ;)

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FROGSMILE   
FROGSMILE
10 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

As noted in Post 4 ;)

 

I would expect nothing less of you, Steven ;)

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tootrock   
tootrock

From "The Long, Long Trail" regarding the Hampshire Regiment:-

12th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Winchester in October 1914 as part of K3 and came under orders of 79th Brigade in 26th Division. Moved to Codford but by November 1914 was in billets in Basingstoke. Moved to Bath in March 1915 and on to Sutton Veny in May.
Landed in France in September 1915 but was soon sent to Salonika, arriving 25 November 1915.

 

Martin

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FROGSMILE   
FROGSMILE
1 hour ago, tootrock said:

From "The Long, Long Trail" regarding the Hampshire Regiment:-

12th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Winchester in October 1914 as part of K3 and came under orders of 79th Brigade in 26th Division. Moved to Codford but by November 1914 was in billets in Basingstoke. Moved to Bath in March 1915 and on to Sutton Veny in May.
Landed in France in September 1915 but was soon sent to Salonika, arriving 25 November 1915.

 

Martin

 

Good stuff, Martin.  A snapshot in time of a service battalion still kitting out and so parading at Basingstoke with just what they have.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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pioneecorps   
pioneecorps

Off subject of OP, I have a photo of a VC recipient in uniform sitting behind a vickers machine gun , who's wearing a round flat disk type cap badge, would this be a unofficial cap badge.

 

Gerwyn 

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jay dubaya   
jay dubaya
13 minutes ago, pioneecorps said:

Off subject of OP, I have a photo of a VC recipient in uniform sitting behind a vickers machine gun , who's wearing a round flat disk type cap badge, would this be a unofficial cap badge.

 

Gerwyn 

 

Probably best off posting an image Gerwyn, maybe even an new thread

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Alan24   
Alan24
34 minutes ago, pioneecorps said:

Off subject of OP, I have a photo of a VC recipient in uniform sitting behind a vickers machine gun , who's wearing a round flat disk type cap badge, would this be a unofficial cap badge.

 

Gerwyn 

Recently saw in an antique shop an inch round card(?) cap badge - red and gold - which said 'Kitchener's Army'.

It was bundled with several other items including Princess Mary tin and priced at £350.

Could it be this type of thing Gerwyn?

 

Regards

Alan.

 

Capture 1999.JPG

Edited by Alan24

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pioneecorps   
pioneecorps

Thank you Jay, will try scanning it later, the photo was given to me by a friend in work many years ago, and was told at the time, it was only for my use, has it was going to be used in a book, so I will only scan the cap badge, with details of soldier.

 

Gerwyn 

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pioneecorps   
pioneecorps
8 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

Recently saw in an antique shop an inch round card(?) cap badge - red and gold - which said 'Kitchener's Army'.

It was bundled with several other items including Princess Mary tin and priced at £350.

Could it be this type of thing Gerwyn?

 

Regards

Alan.

 

Hello Alan, it looked more like a white enameled disk, with what I think a standing dragon, he was in the Welsh Fusiliers.

 

Regards

Gerwyn

Edited by pioneecorps

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pioneecorps   
pioneecorps

I have posted in new thread, my regards to Alan for allowing me to come in on his thread.

 

Regards.

Gerwyn

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PhilB   
PhilB

The chap next to the sgt at the right end of the front row looks like he knocked his cap sideways when sloping arms. That must have been a hazard with those caps and a SMLE to throw up?

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Bartimeus   
Bartimeus
On ‎11‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 22:43, FROGSMILE said:

 

He is a colour sergeant rather than a staff sergeant, RM, which suggests a company (albeit incomplete, or understrength), with the company officers lined up at the front, as is correct.

 

In photos of a TF battalion of the Hampshires, first months of 1915, I've noticed that the Colour Sergeants appointed as CSMs wear a brass crown over their chevrons, while those appointed CQMS wear a cloth crown over their chevrons. By July 1915 the CSMs seem to have adopted the crown on their lower sleeve. A little later still the CQMSs seem to have adopted the brass crown over chevrons.

 

My guess is that the SNCO standing in front of this group is the CSM.

 

According to the Hampshire Regiment Journal (January 1915), in the early days at Basingstoke, OC C Coy 12th Hants was Major R.A. Wombwell, 2-i/c Captain G.R. Pitman, CSM - T. Urry (ex 1st Hants), CQMS - J. Sheath (ex-2nd Hants, and PSI 8th Hants). This is the first account of the battalion to appear in the journal.

 

There are surviving service papers for 844 C/Sgt Thomas Urry, 1st Hants, discharged in September 1904 after 21 years service. He held two India General Service Medals (Burma 1887-89, Burma 1889-92; Relief Of Chitral 1895, Punjab Frontier 1897-98), and would shortly afterwards receive the Africa General Service for Somaliland 1902-04 (when he was present at the battle of Jidballi). He re-enlisted in September 1914 (number 3/4827) and was posted to 12th Bn on its formation. He went back to 3rd Bn on 6th April 1915. Finally received a Long Service & Good Conduct Medal in 1918. At the time of this photo there should be three medal ribbons lurking under his rolled greatcoat.

 

Bart

Edited by Bartimeus

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Alan24   
Alan24

Great stuff Bart.

Would be great if it could be confirmed that Thomas Urry.

 

Regards

 

Alan

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FROGSMILE   
FROGSMILE
8 hours ago, Bartimeus said:

 

In photos of a TF battalion of the Hampshires, first months of 1915, I've noticed that the Colour Sergeants appointed as CSMs wear a brass crown over their chevrons, while those appointed CQMS wear a cloth crown over their chevrons. By July 1915 the CSMs seem to have adopted the crown on their lower sleeve. A little later still the CQMSs seem to have adopted the brass crown over chevrons.

 

My guess is that the SNCO standing in front of this group is the CSM.

 

According to the Hampshire Regiment Journal (January 1915), in the early days at Basingstoke, OC C Coy 12th Hants was Major R.A. Wombwell, 2-i/c Captain G.R. Pitman, CSM - T. Urry (ex 1st Hants), CQMS - J. Sheath (ex-2nd Hants, and PSI 8th Hants). This is the first account of the battalion to appear in the journal.

 

There are surviving service papers for 844 C/Sgt Thomas Urry, 1st Hants, discharged in September 1904 after 21 years service. He held two India General Service Medals (Burma 1887-89, Burma 1889-92; Relief Of Chitral 1895, Punjab Frontier 1897-98), and would shortly afterwards receive the Africa General Service for Somaliland 1902-04 (when he was present at the battle of Jidballi). He re-enlisted in September 1914 (number 3/4827) and was posted to 12th Bn on its formation. He went back to 3rd Bn on 6th April 1915. Finally received a Long Service & Good Conduct Medal in 1918. At the time of this photo there should be three medal ribbons lurking under his rolled greatcoat.

 

Bart

 

Yes, Bart, the TF Battalions were reorganised from 8 companies to 4 in 1915 and the 8 colour sergeants divided as 4 CSMs and 4 CQMS, with rank badge differential as you have described.  I based my earlier assessment on the suggestion that the photo was taken in 1914 during the early stages of mobilisation.  Service Battalions seem for the most part to have been raised from the outset in the 4-Company organisation, although I suspect that there were exceptions.  The carriage by Urry of a parade cane (which I did not earlier spot) suggests that he was indeed the CSM at the time of the photo.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Alan24   
Alan24
12 hours ago, Bartimeus said:

At the time of this photo there should be three medal ribbons lurking under his rolled greatcoat.

 

Bart

 

I've enlarged the photo as big as I can. Possibly some ribbons there - but sometimes you see what your brain is expecting to see.

No pale colours, so if the ribbons were dark they may well be there.

 

Regards

 

Alan.

ribbon.JPG

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