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Sidearm

Trying to find Manchester Drill Hall

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Sidearm

Hello all

 

Here's hoping someone can help me identify a building used as a drill hall by 1st Battalion Lancashire Volunteers (Manchester) in October 1918.

 

This is what I know: the building was originally an engineering shop. It was used by the above unit five nights a week, and I believe it was requisitioned by the military rather than owned by them. The officer in charge of the building was a Major Norquay. Oh, and it was in Manchester, possibly (but not necessarily) in the vicinity of Temple Street.

 

Any help in identifying the building, finding illustrations of it, and details of both its history and of the building itself would be very much appreciated.  Also, does it survive today?

 

Thanks

 

Gwyn

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MBrockway

Unsure which exact unit is meant by "1st Battalion Lancashire Volunteers (Manchester)".

 

If rifle volunteers, then here are the lineages of the Lancashire RVC's showing their VB designatons post Childers/Cardwell and their 1908 TF designation post-Haldane

 

1st Lancashire RVC ==> 1st VB, Liverpool Regt ==> 5/KLR
2nd Lancashire RVC ==> 1st VB, East Lancs Regt= 4/East Lancs
3rd Lancashire RVC ==> 2nd VB, East Lancs Regt ==> 5/East Lancs
4th Lancashire RVC ==> 1st VB, Manchester Regt ==> 5/Manchesters
Liverpool Rifle Volunteer Brigade (5th Lancashire RVC) ==> 2nd VB, Liverpool Regt ==> 6/KLR
6th Lancashire (1st Manchester) RVC ==> 2nd VB, Manchester Regt ==> 6/Manchesters
7th Lancashire RVC ==> 3rd VB, Manchester Regt ==> 9/Manchesters
8th Lancashire RVC ==> 1st VB, LF ==> 5/LF
9th Lancashire RVC ==> 1st VB, South Lancs Regt ==> 4/South Lancs
10th Lancashire RVC ==> 1st VB, King's Own (Royal Lancs)
11th Lancashire RVC ==> VB, Loyal North Lancs Regt
12th Lancashire RVC ==> 2nd VB, LF ==> 6/LF
13th Lancashire RVC ==> 3rd VB, Liverpool Regt ==> DISBANDED 1908
14th Lancashire RVC ==> VB, Loyal North Lancs Regt
15th Lancashire RVC ==> 4th VB, Liverpool Regt ==> 7/KLR
16th (ex 40th) Lancashire (3rd Manchester) RVC ==> 4th VB, Manchester Regt ==> 7/Manchesters
17th Lancashire RVC ==> 3rd VB, LF (a Manchester Regt VB till 1886) ==> 7/LF & 8/LF (two bns)
18th Lancashire (Liverpool Irish) RVC ==> 5th VB, Liverpool Regt ==> 8/KLR
19th Lancashire (Liverpool Press Guard) RVC ==> 6th VB, Liverpool Regt ==> 9/KLR
20th (ex 33rd) Lancashire (2nd Manchester) RVC ==> 5th VB, Manchester Regt ==> 8/Manchesters
21st Lancashire RVC ==> 2nd VB, South Lancs Regt ==> 5/South Lancs
22nd Lancashire RVC ==> 6th VB, Manchester Regt ==> 10/Manchesters

 

1st Lancashire RVC were in Liverpool, so we can rule them out.

 

6th Lancashire (1st Manchester) RVC have 1st Manchester in their title, so a possible?  They became 2nd VB, then 6th Bn, Manchesters and had HQ at 3 Stretford Road, Hulme.  This unit appears to be the most centrally located.

 

4th Lancashire RVC were the 1st VB of the Manchester Regt 1881-1908, so could possibly have been known as "1st Battalion Lancashire Volunteers (Manchester)", but their HQ was at Bank Chambers, Wigan.  Companies were distributed around nearby towns and the western suburbs of what is now Greater Manchester.

 

1st VB's of the East Lancs, the Lancashire Fusiliers and the South Lancs had HQs at Blackburn, Bury and Warrington respectively.

 

"1st Battalion Lancashire Volunteers (Manchester)" could also apply to Artillery etc. of course.

 

Major Norquay is almost certainly the Hon. Major acting as Quarter-Master, but so far I have not found him in the Army Lists.

 

As regards Temple Street, I've found these ...

  • Temple Street, Oldham, OL1 3NJ
  • Temple Street, Middleton, M24 2JG
  • Temple Street, Heywood, OL10 4LZ
  • Temple Road, Sale, M33 2FP
  • Temple Road, Bolton, BL1 3LT
  • Temple Square, Cheetham Hill, M8 8UP

 

Can you narrow it down a bit for us?  None of these are in Manchester city centre.

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

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MBrockway

Are you certain it's Major Norquay and not Major NORQUOY?

 

I have a William Edward NORQUOY as owner/manager of an engineering works making partitions and doors in Ancoats in 1911.  Cannot see any Temple Street nearby though.

 

If you gave us a bit more context for your info, we might be able to help better.

 

Mark

 

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MBrockway

Peace & Norquoy advert from 1914 ...

por_PeaNor.jpg

 

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Sidearm

Mark

 

Thank you very much for this. It is very much appreciated.

 

I'm researching the Manchester Tank Group that was contracted to build Mark VIII hulls for despatch to the Allied Tank Factory at Chateauroux in France for completion with American produced automotive components.  One of the companies involved was Robinson & Kershaw. Their works were the Temple Ironworks, Temple Street, Manchester (see https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Robinson_and_Kershaw).  However, I also have the address as Temple Street, C-on-M, Manchester.  I took C-on-M as a mistyping of an abbreviation of City of Manchester, but perhaps it's something else.  (I'm afraid I don't know Manchester at all). 

 

Robinson & Kershaw were in need of more space to fulfil their part of the contract, and requested use of the drill hall, since its original use as an engineering shop meant it had access to electricity and hydraulic power.  The document I have (correspondence between the Divisional Inspector, Mechanical Warfare Department, Victoria Buildings, St Mary's Gate, Manchester, and the Controller, Mechanical Warfare Department in London) states "...the Corporation electric and hydraulic power runs in front of the main gate...".

 

As regards the unit, the document refers to them as "...the 1st Battalion Lancashire Volunteers (Manchester)...".  There's nothing else except mention of Major Norquay.

 

Thanks again.

 

Gwyn

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MBrockway

Chorlton on Medlock

 

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Sidearm

Our posts crossed.  This looks very promising, thank you.

 

The name is NORQUAY, and mentioned twice, but the original document may have got the name wrong. 

 

I shall follow up the suggestion. Thanks again.

 

Gwyn

2 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

Chorlton on Medlock

 

Brilliant - thank you!

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MBrockway

7/Manchesters (formerly 16th Lancashire (3rd Manchester) RVC) had their drill hall on the S side of BURLINGTON STREET in Chorlton-on-Medlock.

 

The area has been re-developed now and many of the streets have been re-aligned, re-named or lost.

 

6/Manchesters (formerly 6th Lancashire (1st Manchester) RVC) had HQ and drill hall in STRETFORD ROAD, HULME.  This is close to Chorlton-on-Medlock - only about 900m from the 7/Manc drill hall in Burlington St - and we have the bonus of their title including '1st Manchester'.

 

8/Manchesters (formerly 20th Lancashire (2nd Manchester) RVC) were in ARDWICK GREEN, still only approx 1200m away.

 

With more info, I'll now have another look for the location for you.

 

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Sidearm

Thanks Mark.  Just found that William Norquoy, of Peace and Norquoy, died in October 1914 aged seventy.  No mention of heirs yet.  The business was still trading in Union St, Ancoats in September 1917.

 

I have to pack in tonight as I have an early start tomorrow and then I'm away (out of UK) for a few days, but thanks for your help thus far.  You have certainly helped a great deal.

 

Gwyn

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MBrockway

William Edward Norquoy was his son and was still alive in 1939 when he was declared bankrupt!   Family originally from Orkney.

 

You may have the correct spelling with Norquay anyway!

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BillyH

Might be worth contacting GWF member Dragon, she's a Drill Hall expert, see her website about drill halls on her recent post here :

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/topic/250209-an-awful-lot-of-burials-worldwide/?tab=comments#comment-2524842

 

BillyH.

 

 

 

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MBrockway

Temple Ironworks now located - it is now underneath UMIST's Renold Building.

 

The River Medlock also flows under the Renold Building an the Temple Ironworks was on the S bank approx 100m S of the railway line between Oxford Road and Piccadilly stations.

 

Now for the drill hall!

 

Adrwick Green is probably the closest.

 

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MBrockway

Distances from Robinson & Kershaw's Temple Ironworks to the RVC drill halls ...

 

to 8/Manchesters (20th Lancashire (2nd Manchester) RVC) at 5-7 Ardwick Green (the modern TA centre) = 500m

to 7/Manchesters (16th Lancashire (3rd Manchester) RVC) at Burlington Street = 1200m

to 6/Manchesters (6th Lancashire (1st Manchester) RVC) at 3 Stretford Road, Hulme = 1300m

 

The Drill Shed of the 2nd East Lancs Brigade (Manchester Artillery), RFA at Hyde House, 28-30 Hyde Road is definitely another candidate.  This is just to the SE of Ardwick Green.  Distance to the Temple Ironworks = 1000m.

 

TF Yeomanry, RE, ASC and RAMC all seem too far away to be potential locations.

 

1908 map with Temple Ironworks and 8/Manchesters drill hall highlighted ...

5a0509a1bff0b_TempleStreetarea1908(markedup)c.jpg.1369dbcb2e4f611a804a36592d858b5d.jpg

 

The tramlines leading from the works suggest there may be buildings on the east side of the street connected with the works, but I've left them off the highlighting.

 

 

Edited by MBrockway

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MBrockway

Some detail on the Ardwick Green drill hall of the 8/Manchesters (20th Lancashire (2nd Manchester) RVC) here:

http://manchesterhistory.net/manchester/outside/territorial.html

 

1935 map showing the Ardwicks and Artillery drill halls at either end of Ardwick Green (here called Ardwick Park) ...

empiremap2.jpg

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MBrockway

Info on the Burlington Street drill hall of the 7/Manchesters (16th Lancashire (3rd Manchester) RVC) rebuilt on the same site in 1938 though:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burlington_Street_drill_hall,_Manchester

http://manchesterhistory.net/manchester/tours/tour8/area8Bpage9.html

 

 

 

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MBrockway

1930's map showing the location of the drill hall of 6/Manchesters (6th Lancashire (1st Manchester) RVC) - here, I assume, marked with its old name of 2nd VB, Manchester Regt - at 3 Stretford Road, Hulme ...

 

pauldensmap.jpg

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MBrockway

Temple Ironworks seen in 1927.  Taken from the SW looking approx NNE.  The railway viaduct can be clearly seen with ALTRINCHAM STRET paralleling it.  The River Medlock can be seen looping through the buildings.  The road bridge in bottom right quadrant is where SACKVILLE STREET crosses the Medlock.    The junction immediately to the right of this bridge is the meeting of SACKVILLE STREET, MOUNT STREET and RUTLAND STREET.

 

5a050551c2f62_TempleStreetarea1927(markedup)2.jpg.b03efd4170bdbed28bf22e0c26006221.jpg

© Britain from Above

 

Temple Ironworks and the Ardwick Drill Hall of the 8/Manchesters (20th Lancashire (2nd Manchester) RVC) seen in 1949.  Taken from the SE looking NW.  Ardwick Green in immediate foreground.  Piccadilly Station is visible in the top right corner.

5a050026604b3_TempleStreetarea1949(markedup).jpg.ff318feb71c33facf6473ab958d804d7.jpg

© Britain from Above

 

 

 

Edited by MBrockway

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charlie2

The Lancashire Volunteer Regt of 1918 had nothing to do with the pre TF Volunteer movement, it was a  Volunteer Training Corps unit.

 

Charlie

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MBrockway
12 hours ago, charlie2 said:

The Lancashire Volunteer Regt of 1918 had nothing to do with the pre TF Volunteer movement, it was a  Volunteer Training Corps unit.

 

Charlie

 

Very good point

 

I had been troubled as to why long established VF units were using a converted workshop as a drill hall when all four nearest all appear to be substantial purpose-built pukka drill halls.

 

The transient nature of the VTC would fit that scenario much more closely.

 

It would also help explain why Major Norquay is so elusive in the Army Lists.

 

Luckily Graham Stewart has information on this unit, who were apparently based in Temple Street (bingo!) - see this post and the rest of the linked topic ...

 

There is very little material available on-line on the county VTC's, so I suspect a trip to the Manchester library will be required to really confirm all this.

 

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway

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MBrockway

More expertise on the Manchester units of the Lancashire Volunteer Regiment from Graham Stewart.

 

On 03/03/2007 at 00:16, Graham Stewart said:

Chris,

What a beauty and as rare as hens teeth. The date 1915 is very interesting as it shows that the various VTC units in and around Manchester must have progressed into a larger organisation. By 1916 there must have been further reorganisation on becoming part of the Volunteer Force as you have the "Manchester Group", Lancashire Volunteer Regiment, whose H.Q. was at 88 Moseley St, Manchester. By October 1918 the Group consisted on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th Vol Bns, Manchester Regt; the 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th Vol Bns, Lancashire Fusiliers and 2nd Vol Bn, Loyal North Lancs Regt.

The Volunteer Bns of the Manchester Regt were located at;-

1st Vol Bn, Manchester Regt - Temple St, Manchester.

2nd Vol Bn, Manchester Regt - 78 Seymour Grove, Old Trafford, Manchester

3rd Vol Bn, Manchester Regt - The Drill Hall, Rifle St, Oldham

4th Vol Bn, Manchester Regt - The Drill Hall, Rifle St, Oldham.

Graham.

Original post here

 

Unfortunately despite the 1918 'affiliation' as new Volunteer Battalions to line infantry regiments, the officers of these VTC/VF units did not appear in the Army List.

 

The VTC/VF had an equivalent of the Army List called the Volunteer Force List.  You might find Major Norquay there.  At the very least you'd be able to see a list of the officers and possibly a more specific address in Temple Street.

 

These lists are like hen's teeth, mind.  The IWM have the October 1918 version - see here.

 

I'm unaware of them being digitised and available online anywhere.  I think there may be modern reprints and if you're lucky some kind Pal here may be able to do a look-up for you.

 

Mark

 

 

 

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voltaire60
4 hours ago, MBrockway said:

More expertise on the Manchester units of the Lancashire Volunteer Regiment from Graham Stewart.

 

Original post here

 

Unfortunately despite the 1918 'affiliation' as new Volunteer Battalions to line infantry regiments, the officers of these VTC/VF units did not appear in the Army List.

 

The VTC/VF had an equivalent of the Army List called the Volunteer Force List.  You might find Major Norquay there.  At the very least you'd be able to see a list of the officers and possibly a more specific address in Temple Street.

 

These lists are like hen's teeth, mind.  The IWM have the October 1918 version - see here.

 

I'm unaware of them being digitised and available online anywhere.  I think there may be modern reprints and if you're lucky some kind Pal here may be able to do a look-up for you.

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

       There are a few more out there:

 

OCTOBER 1917  : Guildhall Library (City of London), IWM

 

OCTOBER 1918  : IWM, National Archives

 

OCTOBER 1919:  British Library, Bodleian (Oxford)

 

      Looks like only 3 issues and in October of each year.    I can look up fior you at BL and/or  National Archives over the neet week, if you can hold yor breath that long.

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MBrockway
29 minutes ago, voltaire60 said:

       There are a few more out there:

OCTOBER 1917  : Guildhall Library (City of London), IWM

OCTOBER 1918  : IWM, National Archives

OCTOBER 1919:  British Library, Bodleian (Oxford)

      Looks like only 3 issues and in October of each year.    I can look up fior you at BL and/or  National Archives over the neet week, if you can hold yor breath that long.

 

I think Gwyn's not back for a few days anyway, so it'd be marvellous if you could take a look for us.

 

I think what we'd need is the Volunteer Force List October 1918 Lancashire Volunteer Regiment equivalent for this Anglesey page Graham Stewart has posted elsewhere.

 

A scan/picture of the members of 1st and 2nd Volunteer Battalions, Manchester Regiment based at Temple Street and Seymour Grove respectively and any HQ staff of the 'Manchester Group'  at Mosley Street should give us everyone in the city centre locations.  Spotting the infamous Major Norquay would be even better!

post-7376-0-02557600-1404586952.jpg

 

 

 

I suspect you will find the London area VTC content very interesting/useful for your Wanstead project too - have a look at Graham's thread here:

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

 

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MBrockway

Some further views of Robinson & Kershaw's Temple Ironworks found on the University of Manchester library collection website.

 

These date from 1958-1959 when the area was being cleared to build the southwards extension to the UMIST campus beyond the railway viaduct.  Temple Street was lost at this point and subsequent development work lead eventually to the culverting and re-routing of the River Medlock.

 

Click on the links to launch the university's image viewer tool where you can zoom in to get even better detail as well as full metadata.

 

Looking N from the Temple St/Jackson St crossroads.  Ironworks are the buildings on the left.  The steps at the end of the road lead up to Altrincham Street, which was elevated over the river.  The railway viaduct is seen beyond, overcapped by UMIST's enormous Sackville Street Building.

 

University of Manchester Archives Collection: Temple Street

jrl15040233.jpg

Rights Holder - Image: The University of Manchester Library

 

 

 

Looking south down the full length of Temple St from the steps up to Altrincham St seen in the first image.  Temple Ironworks on the RHS.

 

University of Manchester Archives Collection: Temple Street

jrl15040249.jpg
Rights Holder - Image: The University of Manchester Library

 

 

Angled view from the roof of UMIST's Sackville Street Building looking SE across the N end of Temple Street to the Jackson Street crossroads.  Ironworks on  RHS.  The cotton mills on the LHS were refurbished for use by UMIST's Chemical Engineering faculty.

 

University of Manchester Archives Collection: Temple Street

jrl15040252.jpg
Rights Holder - Image: The University of Manchester Library

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by MBrockway

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MBrockway

I have joined the excellent Manchester Regiment Forum seeking more expert help on this Temple Street question, and was pleasantly surprised to see Pal Charlie2 of this parish, who is also one of their Mods, had already stated a topic there picking up Gwyn's request.

 

See here:  The Manchesters - Manchester Regt Volunteer Bns 1918

 

Charlie has found this newspaper listing of the upcoming activities of 2nd Battalion, (presumably) Lancashire Volunteer Regiment ...

5a089912d2552_2ndBnVDCRC-NorquoyCO.jpeg.d7dbc947a88343f45bbe5b9f69e7efb5.jpeg

 

 

Notice "W. E. Norquoy, Commandant".  :D

 

There's still a minor problem however - we know from Graham's information higher up ...

Quote

The Volunteer Bns of the Manchester Regt were located at;-

1st Vol Bn, Manchester Regt - Temple St, Manchester.

2nd Vol Bn, Manchester Regt - 78 Seymour Grove, Old Trafford, Manchester

3rd Vol Bn, Manchester Regt - The Drill Hall, Rifle St, Oldham

4th Vol Bn, Manchester Regt - The Drill Hall, Rifle St, Oldham.

 

Charlie's clipping is headed "2nd BATTALION (V.D.C. AND R.C.)".


 

If this is what became the 2nd VB Manchesters in 1918, then Norquoy is in Old Trafford about 3.3km away from Temple Ironworks.

 

From the index search hits on the British Newspaper Archive, VDC & RC I think means VOLUNTEER DEFENCE CORPS AND RIFLE CLUB

 

Those same hits seem to suggest Norquoy was commandant of the whole of the Manchester Group of VTC battalions, which would keep Temple Street conveniently in the frame.  Unfortunately I have used up all my free views there, so cannot confirm this.

 

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway

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charlie2

This is a copy and paste of my reply to Mark on the Manchesters forum

 

The attachment in my last post is dated 17.01.1916 and is part of the orders for the „Manchester Regiment“. This seems odd as the affiliation supposedly was first made in 1918. It also looks like the battalions were renumbered at some stage between 1916 & 17, other articles have Major Norquoy as OC 1st Bn - see attached. 

In the orders of 17.01.1916 the 6th Bn is in Seymour St  Stretford, which if I remember correctly, is next door to Old Trafford. This would suggest that the 6th Bn of 1916 became the 2nd VB Manchesters in 1918.

I think VDC & RC is an acronim for Volunteer Defence Corps and Rifle Club. The units had names associating them with clubs etc who had formed them, in away like the Pals Bns. 

While searching through the archive I came across one article, which I could no longer download, associating WE Norquoy with a Rifle Club and it also alluded to him having a keen interest in the military.

 

Themonsstar also of this parrish and the Manchesters forum has come up with the goods re the Lancashire Volunteer Regt list which confirms the 1st VB Manchesters as having their HQ on Temple St.

 

Charlie

 

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