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Dazscuba

2nd LT Opet and Officer

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Dazscuba

I have had a look at the military records but can only find medals and awards for both. Can anybody tell me if this is all there is? 

 

1) 2nd Lt Isaac Harold Opet

7 London Rifles

died 22,3,18 aged 30

not even mentioned in the Reg diary that I can see.

 

2) 2nd Lt Arnold Vincent Officer

12 th Batt East York’s Reg

died 10, 5, 17 aged 28

again not even mentioned in the Reg diary that I can see. 

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Mark1959

His Medal Index Card show he had to other rank numbers before being commissioned. Numbers 4813 and 302899. His OR service is shown with 5th Battn London Regt.

Commissioned 27/11/17 and that is shown as being with 7th London. 

Unusually for men first serving oversea after the start of 1916 he first served in France on 28/8/16.

His medals went to his father S Opet of Harrogate. 

The medal under 302899 show only originally in France 28/8/17 to 21/9/16.

The SDGW list says he died of wounds whilst in German hands.

see here

http://www.ww1hull.org.uk/index.php/component/mtree/HARROGATE/8425-opet?Itemid=

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HolymoleyRE

Lt I H Opets PoW file.

 

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/997432/3/2/

 

Put there appears to be no A file prefix option to delve further?

 

Edit.....Would also appear his also named Isidor Harold Opet?

 

As a LCpl he appears on a daily wounded list October 1916.

 

His Officer File at TNA

 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C721546

 

 

Andy

Edited by HolymoleyRE

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HolymoleyRE

Appears that the A prefix means no other document?

Screenshot_20171207-174705.jpg

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HolymoleyRE

AVO was also an OR, a Pte in the 19th Btn Royal Fusiliers

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PRC

For 2nd Lt Opet, have you tried the British Jewry Book of Honour?. There are quite a few pictures so may be one of your man. There are transcriptions on FindMyPast, Ancestry and Forces War Records - unfortunately I don't have subscriptions to any of those so can't really check.

 

However I can see the high level search pages.

 

Looking for search criteria of only "Opet" produces three returns on FMP:-

A.H. Opet 4813 London Regiment (that serial number has already cropped up in connection with Isaac)

T.H Opet 8th London Regiment (a "T" and a capital "I" is a really easy transcription error in quite a few typefaces. May be worth checking the 8th Battalion War Diary for details of him.)

T.H. Opet London Regiment.

 

Ancestry also has three matches:-

L/Cpl A.H. Opet, service number and regiment available.

2/Lt T.H. Opet regiment available

2/Lt T.H. Opet regiment available.

 

Forces War Records says it has 7 references for him, however I don't think they are all from that source. One of the variations is adds in is a Rifleman 4813 J H Opet, London Regiment.

 

Hopefully someone with better access than me can take a look and let you know if there is anything useful there.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edit: Arnold Officer is recorded on SDGW as "Died" and he is buried at Etaples. That sounds more like ill-health or accident rather than battle related, although its sometimes used to describe post-operative infections during the recuperation stage. This is why I suspect he doesn't appear in the war diary. If you go back over the previous few weeks you may find a reference to him being sent to hospital.

 

Probably worth trying local newspapers for both of them. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission website records him as the son of Harry Smith Officer and Mary Officer of Hull.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/504478/officer,-arnold-vincent/

 

Edited by PRC
Found time to look at Arnold Officer.

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Old Owl

He is listed in the British Jewry book as: 2/Lieut.T.H.Opet, 8th Londons, 23/3/18, from Withernsea, Yorks.  There is no picture of him in the book.

His true name is Isidor Harold Opet and he was aged 30, and 7th att'd 8th Bn London Regt., when killed.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Robert

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HolymoleyRE

Having access to FWR, The Genealogist and the other usual genealogy suspects.

 

The Opet initials and dates are all over the place my gut feel is they are all the same man.....

 

As i can only see one MIC and two Medal Rolls for an Opet...Isaac Harold Opet #4813 (post 1917 number 302889) 1/5th Btn LR....then Commissioned into 7th Btn LR.

 

First up is FWR LCpl AH Opet 1/5th Btn Jewery Book of Honour.

 

Next is both 2/Lt TH Opet 8th Btn LR which is the Jewery book of Honour, killed in action 23rd March 1918...same as IH Opet....which CWGC have as Isidor Harold Opet 7th Btn LR att Post Office Rifles...aka 8th Btn LR.

 

Next is JH Opet,  FWR has a transcribed med report for 4813 Rifleman JH Opet 1/5th Btn LR aged 29, in the field 3 weeks admitted GSW leg 17th Sept 1916...ties in with daily wound list, which normally appear a month later.

 

The others on FWR are 2 x records for 2nd Lt Isidor Harold Opet 7th Btn LR and relate to his death on CWGC.

 

Only birth record I can see is for Isaac Harold Opet

 

The other is 2nd Lt IH Opet 7th Btn LR, seniority 28th Nov 17, attached 2/8th Btn LR.

 

Still with me.....😊

 

On the Genealogist 

 

Are the wound record for 4813 LCpl IH Opet, the missing report in April 18 for 2nd Lt IH Opet.

 

Then in Feb 1919 is WO report that he was previously reported missing died as a Prisoner in German Hands...see ICRC link above...

 

Phew!

 

Andy

Edited by HolymoleyRE

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HarryBrook

2nd Lt. Arnold Vincent Officer did die after and operation, as reported in the Hull Daily Mail on 19 May 1917, but notes that he had been wounded.

 

Officer, 2nd Lt. Arnold Vincent, Hull Daily Mail 19.5.1917.JPG

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clk

Hi,

 

With respect to Opet, what remains of his 'service' file is here at the National Archives. (I haven't looked, but I guess they will also hold one for AVO)

 

Having not seen his service file, from the medal roll for the 5th Bn London Regiment, it would seem that under the 1917 TF renumbering, the new 6 digit numbers were issued sequentially based on the previous 4 digit number that the men held. Doing a near number search for men with the (re)number 3028**, and looking at a couple of the results, you get

 

4715 Griffiths was renumbered 302815. He was posted to the 5th Bn on 1st May 1916

4716 Grimes was renumbered 302816. He was posted to the (3/) 5th Bn on 29th April 1916

4719 Kerr was renumbered 302819. He enlisted on 29th April 1916

 

Repeating the exercise using the 3029** (re)number should enable you to 'bracket' his likely service start date.

 

When Andy said...

 

14 minutes ago, HolymoleyRE said:

JH Opet is a transcribed med report for 4813 Rifleman JH Opet 1/5tg Btn LR aged 29, in the field 3 weeks admitted GSW leg 17th Sept 1916

 

I think that he's referring to the FWR record here (transcribed from the records of 34 Casualty Clearing Station). At the time it also says that he had 4 months service, which would seem to tie back to the number sampling approach for likely service starting in May 1916.

 

Regards

Chris

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PRC

One more piece of evidence from the 1921 Probate Calendar on whether he was an Isaac or an Isidor :-)5a29a9fb56575_IsaacHaroldOpet1921ProbateCalendarEntry.png.b1a322a152004a5dd7f25c4c8290b31b.png

 

 

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HolymoleyRE
1 hour ago, clk said:

When Andy said...

 

 

I think that he's referring to the FWR record here (transcribed from the records of 34 Casualty Clearing Station). At the time it also says that he had 4 months service, which would seem to tie back to the number sampling approach for likely service starting in May 1916.

 

Regards

Chris

Indeed I was Chris, I was typing at a bit of canter trying to get to the local on time!

 

Andy

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Dazscuba

Gents thanks very much lots to digest. Hope you don't mind but I have sent some of you an e mail. 

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HolymoleyRE

IHP's father Siegfried was classed as an Enemy Alien.  The father and mother (Rosebel) were born in Germany, his birth in 1887 in Yorkshire, he is registered as Isaac Harold Opet, did he briefly change his name to Isidor to hide his dual nationality?

Screenshot_20171207-235812.jpg

Edited by HolymoleyRE

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PRC

If Isaac \ Isidor was with the 8th Battalion then you may be interested in this - a personal account by a Sergeant captured at the time which references several officers although only usually by a single initial.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/diaries/openingofgermanoffensive.htm

 

Cheers,

Peter

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Mark1959

The SDGW is Soldiers Died in the Great War. A list created after the end of the war of all those killed/died during it. This list contains the “in German Hands” statement .

Ancestry has Opet’s soldiers Effects record indexed under I H Opel. That just says “Missing” in 1919. Now if you look at the CWGC (War Graves)  record you will see his remains were originally only the unidentified body of a 2nd Lt of the London Regt. This was in 1919. By 1921 he had been identified and thus has a known grave. Difficult to surmise but perhaps his original burial place was marked by the Germans and hence the SDGW list. I am not sure when the list was produced. 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/328581/opet,-isidor-harold/

i have sent Ancestry a request to amend their index to Opet.

Edited by Mark1959

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Dazscuba

What does ICRC stand for and how do we know it’s a POW page/ file as it does not say this? 

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HolymoleyRE

International Committee of the Red Cross.

 

The file was held on the PoW Archives in Geneva, also in 1919 as indicated above he was reported as DoW whilst in German Hands.

Edited by HolymoleyRE

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Dazscuba

Sorry for my ignorance but where does it say DoW whilst in German hands? 

Lots of questions soz 

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PRC
14 minutes ago, Dazscuba said:

Sorry for my ignorance but where does it say DoW whilst in German hands? 

Lots of questions soz 

 That information is on Soldiers Died in the Great War, not the International Red Cross file.

 

All the pay to view Genealogy sites will have a transcription of SDGW, but here's what it looks like on Genes Reunited.

 

After the armistice the German Army was required to co-operate with the Allies in supplying records of the burial places of Allied troops. It would have been their records that would have confirmed he was an unknown Lieutenant of the London Regiment. Even if he had not been moved to his current location until 1921, (an exhumation that might have provided more evidence to confirm identification and was probably what enabled the claim through the probate court to progress), there was probably sufficient information available at the time to make the statement possible that 2/Lt Opet died in German hands while SDGW was being prepared. I believe the Stationery Office published it in early 1922.

 

One possible scenario is in that diary extract I pointed you at.

 

One of our officers from "A" company is lying on a stretcher badly wounded in the stomach.  He is delirious with pain.  It hurts to see him writhe, and hear him call his N.C.O.'s one by one.  I know each one he mentions, and wonder whether they are living or dead.

We carry this officer about for some hours, until we reach a German casualty clearing station, where we leave him.  He has grown much quieter, and I think his end is near. 

 

Of course no way of knowing at this stage if that was Lt Opet, but sounds like the Officer concerned had slipped into unconsciousness by the time he reached the German Casualty Station and any likely triage would have concluded that he wasn't capable of being saved. The soldiers who might have been able to identify him had been herded on. So a possible line of enquiry is to try and identify from the Battalion War Diary which Company Lt Opet was serving with - previous operational orders, references elsewhere in the daily entries, etc. There is also a Divisional History that may help.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Lt Opet SDGW screenshot.png

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HolymoleyRE

From the Genealogist

Screenshot_20171208-131352.jpg

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Dazscuba

Peter, Holymoley thanks again for the assistance 

Edited by Dazscuba

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Dazscuba

Is there any way or where, other records I can find out where, what his wounds were etc?

the diary information is fantastic even if it’s not him it gives a good account of what was happening and how it felt. 

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HolymoleyRE
20 hours ago, HolymoleyRE said:

Appears that the A prefix means no other document?

Screenshot_20171207-174705.jpg

Daz  on his ICRC card, it is annotated as Negatif Envoye, so he was never a PoW in the eyes of the Red Cross, but was an Officer who died in the hands of the Germans, sadly the WD of the 8th Btn appears to be missing any entry for March/April 18, and prior to that he may have been attached to the 2/8th Btn which was absorbed into the 1/8th Btn at the end of Feb!

 

But the Diary does have some fantastic trench maps and Aerial Photos amongst the pages.

Edited by HolymoleyRE

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Dazscuba

Thanks again 

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